Tanudder racebike

[mossrider]

Just now, Spatt said:

Let me know what you're missing I've got enough spare motor parts I probably have what youre missing.  Like I was telling Copulous tonight I need to assemble the 4th motor just for the simple fact, I think I'm just short a set of rods in parts for another spare superbike motor for the trailer as a spare.

Zoran has my head reworked and were waiting on my cams which are locked up at Web in SoCal. The rest are just bits and bobs I can do w/o for now.

[Spatt]

1 minute ago, mossrider said:

Zoran has my head reworked and were waiting on my cams which are locked up at Web in SoCal. The rest are just bits and bobs I can do w/o for now.

I talked to Melissa yesterday they are running.  I also have 2 sets of spare cams but you’d need springs, those I don’t have spares of.  

[Joaoduarte]

Mossrider i was trying to figure out what you have done to the airbox, you reduced the intake runners lenght and you will run without an airfilter? So the filter is the element that restricts the higher rpms i mean the top end power and in your specific case with the ported head it would hurt even more, so your taking the idea similar of that hord power airbox? 

 

Amazing project you got there

[mossrider]

1 hour ago, Joaoduarte said:

Mossrider i was trying to figure out what you have done to the airbox, you reduced the intake runners lenght and you will run without an airfilter? So the filter is the element that restricts the higher rpms i mean the top end power and in your specific case with the ported head it would hurt even more, so your taking the idea similar of that hord power airbox? 

 

Amazing project you got there

Thanks for the kind words. This has nothing to do with JD's airbox. This was developed specifically for racing.  My race organization requires an 'unmodified stock airbox' for use in the Super Sport class. In the Super Bike, Grand Prix, Formula 40 and Super Twins classes you can run a modified or unrestricted intake system. I used to run all classes on the same day so needed a quick and easy way to take advantage of the rules. Race 1 on treaded DOT tires with stock airbox and filter in. Race 2 switch to slicks, rip off the airbox snorkle, lid and filter, short runners, bam 5-6 more hp on a stock motor. 

I've since added engine mods that prevent me running Super Sport any more but were developed to compete in MotoAmerica Twins Cup. Their rules require 'an airbox with vents, breathers and drains intact'. MotoAmerica's technical director specifically ruled out the Hord Power airbox. Enter my modded airbox again. 

The shortened runners have 2 main advantages. First they flow better and allow the engine to utilize a higher state of tune as you mentioned. Second, and probably more importantly, in conjunction with the lack of filter the on-off throttle and ridability is butter smooth and instantaneous making it a much sharper weapon of destruction to the competition. These modifications were developed systematically after exhaustive dyno work (45 runs over 3 years) and on track racing over the same period. 

Interestingly a forum member, @sansnombre, 

 did an exhaustive research project into the fluid Dynamics of the stock airbox and came to a similar conclusion I did, that Yamaha hit it off the fence with the intake system on this bike, all things considered. The Hord Power airbox is a great upgrade for most owners except that is was not race compliant in my case. 

I guess we, like others, have all ended up near the same place via different paths. I'm sure folks like J.D. Hord at Hord Power, Matt Spicer at Robem, Andy Palmer at AP MotoArts, Eric Dorn at EDR Performance, etc have done the same. And of course we all peek over the fence to see what's going on. We all run against each other's magic and we all know whose is best.

[Joaoduarte]

wow! so the filter and the lid and the snorkel all together turns into such  a restriction on high rpms! so like you said in a stock engine just by removing the snorkel and lid and filter you get 5-6hp on the high rpm? also why does the jergin off throttle to on throttle turns butter smooth without air filter?

Oh i see so you made this setup so that you could swap between competition rules without much hassle, i understand.

thanks for you answer and continue with the project. are there pictures of your bike?

Edited April 18, 2020 by Joaoduarte

[mossrider]

Just now, Joaoduarte said:

wow! so the filter and the lid and the snorkel all together turns into such  a restriction on high rpms! so like you said in a stock engine just by removing the snorkel and lid and filter you get 5-6hp on the high rpm? also why does the jergin off throttle to on throttle turns butter smooth without air filter?

Oh i see so you made this setup so that you could swap between competition rules without much hassle, i understand.

thanks for you answer and continue with the project. are there pictures of your bike?

The racing/track forum is full of pics.

Beating up on an AP MotoArts bike,

 

 

[Joaoduarte]

inst it dangerous to run without the air filter? and how many hp you are running on this bike?

[mossrider]

Just now, Joaoduarte said:

inst it dangerous to run without the air filter? and how many hp you are running on this bike?

We've run race bikes w/o filters since the dawn of racing. Velocity stacks, open bell mouths, empty airboxes, ram air, you name it. Race bikes tend to be better maintained and get rebuilt more frequently than street machines. To take full advantage of any performance upgrades we keep everything in peak condition, or try to anyway. Of course there is a risk without running a filter but aircraft, outboard motors, water craft, inboard marine engines have gone w/o filters for ever.

This particular motor makes about 90hp depending on the level of fuel used. I run stock pistons and stop at around this power level in the interest of longevity. I run a lot of sprint races, numerous trophy dashes a 3 hour and a 5 hour endurance race every year. Once you go past 90hp you have a fast bike for sure but you also have the bills, labor, parts piles and pita to go with it. Fine for some at the highest levels of racing but I'm primarily a club racer on a small budget that does an occasional pro race.  

Keep in mind it's not as easy as pulling the filter and cover off to get peak power as you say. I've got a PC5 and a flashed ecu on the bike and it has been carefully tuned on a Mustang dyno with electromagnetic brake using an EGR analyzer by a professional tuner to build maps specific to the task and fuel to make that power and do it in such a way that I can roll throttle to apex and get on gas sooner and harder than the bike and rider next to me. Advantage Blue Line Racing! My bike consistantly runs with bikes that have 5 to 10 more horse power by having a good tune and smooth, usable power charcteristics. Peak horse power is great in drag racing but smooth power is where it's at on crooked tracks. 

Cheers.

Edit, in that pic above that's Wards' 95+hp white FZ07R mine is passing during the 5 hour team endurance race. But this is a perfect example of using a good tune to overcome obsticals. They're coming off T9 where Chris on my bike was able to run it in deeper and get on it sooner than Chase on Wards bike. Of course the rider has an infinite impact on how things turn out in the end. 

[Joaoduarte]

thank you for being so comunicative. And theres is a lot of information in this discussion, that i feel

really interesting for everyone that have an mt07, i do myself have a mt07 with akra ti, kn air filter Dna Air filter quickshifter power commander V and auto tune. 

And i was trying to get some information about the intake because iam in europe, Portugal and i think i cant get an hord airbox in here. but i was considering trying to run without the air filter and using the autotune to get a safe air fuel ratio just for testing purpose. do you think it would be dangerous? or for street use you do think there are other solutions?

also just for curiosity and knowloedge you said you have your mt07 flashed but also you use an power commander V, what would be the advantage of having a power commander V if you already have the mt07 flashed?

 

sorry for all the questions, and thank you a lot for all this information. In Portugal it is really really hard to get information about bikes like mt07 or others, the knowledge comes a lot from personal experience,

and we hardly have a chance to ask someone to racing enthusiasts and racing drivers.

Also are there any youtube channels or something about this super twins championship?

i found this channel LWT Racer and website LWTRacer.com

[mossrider]

Just now, Joaoduarte said:

thank you for being so comunicative.

but i was considering trying to run without the air filter and using the autotune to get a safe air fuel ratio just for testing purpose. do you think it would be dangerous? or for street use you do think there are other solutions?

also just for curiosity and knowloedge you said you have your mt07 flashed but also you use an power commander V, what would be the advantage of having a power commander V if you already have the mt07 flashed?

Also are there any youtube channels or something about this super twins championship?

i found this channel LWT Racer and website LWTRacer.com

My pleasure. A lot of racers/builders/tuners can be tight lipped about their data for various good reasons. 

It's not dangerous per se if you're careful. With the factory airbox in place sans cover and filter, the intake is still pretty well protected within the bodywork of the bike. It's not really that beneficial tho on a street bike where every last hp is less important. Remember I'll never get 60,000 miles on my race bike, I'll wad it up 10 times and start over repeatedly in that time.

I use the 'ecu flash' to set many of my parameters to a more advantageous condition. Like I raised the fan on temp to keep more heat in the motor (before removing the fan and disconnecting it all together). I also raised the rev limiter, shut off the chop throttle fuel cut, removed any low gear power limitations, etc. The ecu has a base race fuel map on top of that.

My tuner then builds his specific map on the pc5. It lets him control fuel, spark, timing and whatnot. I use the pc5 trackside to control the quick shifter parameters, kill times, rpm, and to switch back and forth between standard and gp shift using my push-pull sensor.  I also have a dual map switch that allows me to store and use a second map for 'rain' or a specific 'fuel'.  It's a little more cluttered under the hood than a dedicated stand alone system like A Racer or Woolich but doesn't require a trackside technician to run and is cheap and easy and I'm familiar with it. (read dense)

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Sam's website is a great resource, he's top notch.

 

[AP996]

1 hour ago, Joaoduarte said:

And i was trying to get some information about the intake because iam in europe, Portugal and i think i cant get an hord airbox in here. but i was considering trying to run without the air filter and using the autotune to get a safe air fuel ratio just for testing purpose

If you can’t get a hord airbox you could try building your own as I have, two of the straight airbox to throttle body intakes cut down and turned down 40mm Weber bell mouths pushed in and secured with jubilee clips, then a Ramair air filter with correct  inlet spacing just slips over. I’m getting pretty good power with this and I was still adjusting the fuelling with a dyno run once a month until this virus shut everything down. Last run 6 weeks ago was 74.75 hp at the wheel and I think I would probably be 2 or 3 hp better if I was running a better exhaust ( Akra or Yoshi) instead of my parts bin lash up of modified standard headers and Leovince under body can. Mid range with this setup is really good with 50ftlb torque.

 

[Joaoduarte]

7 minutes ago, AP996 said:

If you can’t get a hord airbox you could try building your own as I have, two of the straight airbox to throttle body intakes cut down and turned down 40mm Weber bell mouths pushed in and secured with jubilee clips, then a Ramair air filter with correct  inlet spacing just slips over. I’m getting pretty good power with this and I was still adjusting the fuelling with a dyno run once a month until this virus shut everything down. Last run 6 weeks ago was 74.75 hp at the wheel and I think I would probably be 2 or 3 hp better if I was running a better exhaust ( Akra or Yoshi) instead of my parts bin lash up of modified standard headers and Leovince under body can. Mid range with this setup is really good with 50ftlb torque.

 

can you give more information? like wich is that filter? you felt a good difference? was it hard to remove the stock air box because it looks like

[AP996]

8 minutes ago, Joaoduarte said:

can you give more information? like wich is that filter? you felt a good difference? was it hard to remove the stock air box because it looks like

The air filter is Ramair MSS 010, in the UK they are £25 for 2 so you will have a spare.

The airbox is pretty tricky to get out but I managed it without a scratch but it is a tight fit.

You will notice the difference straight away, bike is much more eager to rev, should be easy to setup with your auto tune 

Hope that helps

Edited April 18, 2020 by AP996

[Joaoduarte]

43 minutes ago, AP996 said:

The air filter is Ramair MSS 010, in the UK they are £25 for 2 so you will have a spare.

The airbox is pretty tricky to get out but I managed it without a scratch but it is a tight fit.

You will notice the difference straight away, bike is much more eager to rev, should be easy to setup with your auto tune 

Hope that helps

thank you a lot my friend! also i got a spare airbox for the mt07  i can use the intake tracts for it then. 

40mm Weber bell mouths - where do you got them? 40mm is the inside diameter, can you give me a link or so where you got it?

Also you had to do some work with syncing the throttlebodies?

Edited April 18, 2020 by Joaoduarte

[AP996]

3 hours ago, Joaoduarte said:

40mm Weber bell mouths - where do you got them? 40mm is the inside diameter, can you give me a link or so where you got it?

Also you had to do some work with syncing the throttlebodies?

I got my bell mouths off eBay for about £35 for a pair, I bought ones that were 38mm long and then had the end that fits in the carb cut off on a lathe. The 38mm long ones once cut down are only just long enough, if I was doing it again I would cut down 50mm ones so I had a few more mm in the rubber tubes. You also need to trim the external ribs on the inlet rubbers a bit to let the jubilee clips sit down flat all the way round. If you get the parts it will be fairly obvious what needs to be done and it’s all cheap, even with buying 2 airbox’s, the bell mouths and the filters it only cost me about £100 and if you don’t like it you can put your original airbox back on but I don’t think you will want to

The bike will feel great but will be running really lean in the mid range, I have corrected mine by flashing the ecu with a Powervision 3 but I would think that your auto tune will correct your fuelling for you.

Hope this helps

[Joaoduarte]

Good i had another Idea that was cutting the upper part of the airbox and the down part also and leaving that filtrar inside probably still run just as Good. Só the weber bellmouths are 40mm um diâmeter?

[AP996]

57 minutes ago, Joaoduarte said:

Só the weber bellmouths are 40mm um diâmeter?

If you search on eBay for Weber 40mm bell mouths you will see loads of them in different lengths, you need the slot in type and then cut or machine off the section that slots into a carb, you will find the remaining section are a good fit into your intake tubes.

Edited April 18, 2020 by AP996

[pgeldz]

On 4/18/2020 at 10:02 AM, AP996 said:

If you can’t get a hord airbox you could try building your own as I have, two of the straight airbox to throttle body intakes cut down and turned down 40mm Weber bell mouths pushed in and secured with jubilee clips, then a Ramair air filter with correct  inlet spacing just slips over. I’m getting pretty good power with this and I was still adjusting the fuelling with a dyno run once a month until this virus shut everything down. Last run 6 weeks ago was 74.75 hp at the wheel and I think I would probably be 2 or 3 hp better if I was running a better exhaust ( Akra or Yoshi) instead of my parts bin lash up of modified standard headers and Leovince under body can. Mid range with this setup is really good with 50ftlb torque.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very nice.  Similar to what I did, and we got like 4.5 hp more than the Hord box

I'd imagine yours will be similar.

- Paul

[AP996]

2 hours ago, pgeldz said:

 

Very nice.  Similar to what I did, and we got like 4.5 hp more than the Hord box

I'd imagine yours will be similar.

- Paul

Thanks Paul, at the moment I,m running an ignition map that’s just a mixture of dynojet map at low revs and ftecu unrestricted at high revs/large throttle opening. Any chance you could point me in the direction of how much ignition advance I can get away with premium gas (98 -99 octane here about same as your 91). Hope you don’t mind the cheeky question, I realise how much dyno time you probably spent to find out and no problem if you would rather not say.

Andy

[pgeldz]

27 minutes ago, AP996 said:

Thanks Paul, at the moment I,m running an ignition map that’s just a mixture of dynojet map at low revs and ftecu unrestricted at high revs/large throttle opening. Any chance you could point me in the direction of how much ignition advance I can get away with premium gas (98 -99 octane here about same as your 91). Hope you don’t mind the cheeky question, I realise how much dyno time you probably spent to find out and no problem if you would rather not say.

Andy

I would certainly tell you, but I don't have that info.  My timing advance is a combination of a flash, and Rapid Bike, so I couldn't really tell you because the values are quite different between the two.  The timing values in the ECU flash are not the same as the REAL values in Rapid Bike, so it's impossible to say.

I do know that if you are using FTEC ECU flash, their timing is WAY WAY to much at their default setting.  I'm only using the flash to make the fan come on sooner, and remove top speed limits.  Everything else is done in Rapid Bike.  I wish we would have zeroed the ignition map and done it all in Rapid Bike, but my tuner started with really dialed in ignition values from a previous map, and then trimmed them in Rapid Bike, if that makes sense.

- Paul

[AP996]

7 minutes ago, pgeldz said:

I would certainly tell you, but I don't have that info.  My timing advance is a combination of a flash, and Rapid Bike, so I couldn't really tell you because the values are quite different between the two.  The timing values in the ECU flash are not the same as the REAL values in Rapid Bike, so it's impossible to say.

I do know that if you are using FTEC ECU flash, their timing is WAY WAY to much at their default setting.  I'm only using the flash to make the fan come on sooner, and remove top speed limits.  Everything else is done in Rapid Bike.  I wish we would have zeroed the ignition map and done it all in Rapid Bike, but my tuner started with really dialed in ignition values from a previous map, and then trimmed them in Rapid Bike, if that makes sense.

- Paul

Thanks Paul

I’m using Powervision 3 not ftecu but I saw a picture of their ignition map and saw that others using it had problems with pinging at low revs so decided to go with a powercommander ignition map at low revs and the ftecu one at high revs, seems to work ok but always looking to see if I can gain any information and horse power.

I have a second set of throttle bodies that I am having bored out a little just at the engine side the same diameter as the butterfly, I don’t expect any gain unless I open up the intake port to match though. I haven’t pulled an engine down since I stopped racing over 20 years ago but I’m now starting to get itchy to build one again.

[mossrider]

So I have a delivery date looming on one side and Spatt poppin 'em out on the other. Time to get my roll on.

Motor goin in, 

Gauges and fairing stay mocked up,

This Brembo stuff is really nice, 

Should have it out aggrevating the neighbors this weekend. 

[mossrider]

...the lion sleeps tonight..

I'll dress it tomorrow, clean it up, tidy up a few things, then...

 

[mossrider]

So I just measured seat height out of curiosity. 

34" front, 35 1/2 rear, swingarm angle is 15+ degrees, too much. I'll have to take some outta it.

Mine for comparison is 33"f, 34 1/2r, swinger angle is 13.4 degrees. Momma bear.

Jury is still out on the difference between the first gen AP bodywork and the Sharkskinz stuff. They're both pretty nice, flexible yet strong enough. Finish on the Sharkskinz is top notch. My first gen AP stuff was wizbang when Catalyst Composites was doing it. Crashes like a main battle tank and is easy to patch, I know. Quality sagged for a time and is good again now that Andy has learned how to make it and is using some really cool fabrics, matts and weaves. I have a great deal of experience fixing all the different iterations of this bodywork. Original was good but heavy. Intermediate was all-around poor but very light. The current AP stuff is some of the best I've seen, light, strong and near flawless.

I do prefer the AP Motoarts mounting kit however. The Sharkskinz has too many fasteners and they are too small, 8 in the 2 piece seatpan alone vs 4 in AP's 1 piece design.  Less is more in this case. 

[Evill_Ed]

Yeah, you can see how steep that swing arm angle is in the picture.  Back her off a few degrees Moss