Apparently everybody got memo except me - Fuji axle nuts s#ck big

[Yakko Warner]

I used a class 8 nut, not the hardened class 10.  I took a picture of the nut's damage and another of it alongside the oem nut.

The damage looks similar to the axle threads, so the axle might be roughly class 8 hardness.  Also the damage looks to be around where the tabs on the Fuji nut are, supporting the theory that the metal tabs cause this problem.  If so, then people who changed their axles along with their nuts may rest easier.

Thanks again for everyone's input.  I'll definitely be careful with these threads going forward.  And thanks blackout for the rethreading die idea.

 

[Pursuvant]

Given blackout 's and Yakko 's info, I'm going to continue with the Belmetric Class 10 hardened nylock nut and am going to torque at 50 ft-lbs. Axle cleaned with wire brush and wiped with dry rag, no lube or anti-seize.

We have reports of two different axle nuts failing withe oem axle (fuji nut and Class 8 nylock nut). Suggests the axle itself or the axle's condition (dirt/corrosion,etc) may be the problem. But it could also be Yakko's axle was damaged by the fuji nut as he removed it to replace with a Class 8 nylock nut).

This Belmetric nut is no longer recommended - it too has seized under work stress

Edited December 19, 2020 by Pursuvant

[ElGonzales]

I am still using the original Yamaha nut at my 2014 MT-07. No problem until now, I am waiting since years for the nut to fail
I have a rear crash pad covering the nut and end of the axle. I clean the threads with a tooth brush and WD-40 before loosening the nut and apply a little bit ceramic anti seize later with cleaned inner and outer threads.
Then I torque it to ~98 Nm instead of the official 105 Nm.
I hope nobody of my neighbours sees me doing all this esotherik stuff because of a shitty nut/axle combination.

[Pursuvant]

On 12/5/2020 at 12:44 AM, Pursuvant said:

We have not had any reports of a Belmetric nylock nut/axle failure.

Karma! Belmetric nut seizure discovered today.

Felt the seizure locking up as I tried to loosen to adjust chain. Two different nut types have failed on Yami oem axle.

This axle/nut have been torqued at 68 ft-lbs in past and now I get to cut off the nut.

New axle on the way, already have 2 extra Belmetric.nuts.

Disclaimer - I would never recommend anyone do anything contradicting Yami service recommendations or specs

Edited December 8, 2020 by Pursuvant
Removed opin written out of frustration

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, Pursuvant said:

Belmetric nut seizure discovered today.

Felt the seizure locking up as I tried to loosen to adjust chain. Two different nut types have failed on Yami oem axle.

1) was that nut put on a virgin axle, or is it possible there were some threads that may have had issues from the original fuji nut (although the original nut may have come off without apparent incident).

2) the R6 axle has interchangeability, slightly higher price on Partzilla than the MT-07 axle which tends to support what others have said that it may be better grade metal. Is the new axle on the way an OEM MT-07 axle?

[mt7fan]

From where do you get this 68 ft-lbs specification? Official for FZ-07 is 77 ft-lbs (105 Nm). 

[Pursuvant]

5 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

1) virgin axle

2) OEM MT-07 axle?

Yes

Yes

[Pursuvant]

4 hours ago, mt7fan said:

68 ft-lbs specification?

Round 1 Factory fuji failed at 77. New axle, new Belmetric nut, reduce torque 9 lbs to 68.

Round 2 Failure at 68. New axle, new Belmetric nut, reduce torque to 52 lbs out of frustration.

If any axle movement detected will slow walk torque up from 52, let the bike tell me what's a better axle torque number.

I do 10 second walk about every time I start - check all criticals with my eye and physical grab/try to move them. Axle & chain adjusters are just 3 things I'm constantly checking out.

[mt7fan]

Ok. I use the original nut since four years, with 95-100 Nm (70-74 ft-lbs) and copper anti-seize. And clean the nut 2-3 times a year.

[blackout]

Sounds like anti-seize might be required.   I'll probably start doing that.

I still find it hard to believe Yamaha would purposely spec a cheaper axle material for the fz07, but maybe I'm naive.  

[blackout]

10 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

1) was that nut put on a virgin axle, or is it possible there were some threads that may have had issues from the original fuji nut (although the original nut may have come off without apparent incident).

2) the R6 axle has interchangeability, slightly higher price on Partzilla than the MT-07 axle which tends to support what others have said that it may be better grade metal. Is the new axle on the way an OEM MT-07 axle?

Are we sure the R6 axle will fit? 

I could see it being too short because our "old school" axle block swingarms are wider than a modern supersport swingarm.

The R6 axle also looks like it might be a larger diameter,  but that's just from pictures.

Thanks for any info.  Just looking for a confirmation. 

[Pursuvant]

On 12/8/2020 at 9:21 AM, blackout said:

Sounds like anti-seize might be required.   I'll probably start doing that

I clearly don't know cause I've had 2 seizures.

This Belmetric nut is no longer recommended - it too has seized under work stress

Edited December 19, 2020 by Pursuvant

[blackout]

22 minutes ago, Pursuvant said:

I clearly don't know cause I've had 2 seizures. I would be more comfortable with a torque around 60+, and if anti-seize gets me there I'll change my old habit of no lube on axle nut. I may do that with new axle (on the way), anti-seize & Belmetric nut. Sounds weird, nylock nut & anti-sieze. Can somebody really smart solve this please?

Is the smart move at this point, go back to fuji nut + anti-seize torque 68 lbs? I got two new unused fuji nuts, and don't want a 3rd siezure

A standard (non locking) nut, safety wired or clipped, with a little anti-seize is what I plan to do for both bikes.

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, blackout said:

Are we sure the R6 axle will fit? 

...Just looking for a confirmation. 

I have not done it personally - but the following person knows much more than I do (pg1 of this thread)

On 9/7/2020 at 10:05 PM, Spatt said:

Switch to an R6 axle.  Same part better material I don’t use the stock axles and swap to an SV650 nut without the lock.  

 

On 9/8/2020 at 5:53 AM, Spatt said:

... the older r6 uses the same part number and never had and issue with it. 

OK so as far as "older" I don't know the exact year. 

If you go to Partzilla and find the MT-07 axle 

Yamaha 4FN-22141-00-00 - SHAFT, PIVOT | Partzilla.com

---

Buy Yamaha 4FN-22141-00-00 - SHAFT, PIVOT. This OEM part is guaranteed by Yamaha's limited part warranty ✓ FREE Shipping on...

they show it fitting the MT-07 as well as 2004 R6.

However when we look at the 2004 R6 part it does not cross reference the MT-07 so I suppose we need clarity from @Spatt

 

Yamaha 5SL-25381-10-00 - AXLE, WHEEL | Partzilla.com

---

Buy Yamaha 5SL-25381-10-00 - AXLE, WHEEL. This OEM part is guaranteed by Yamaha's limited part warranty ✓ FREE Shipping on...

 

[blackout]

1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said:

I have not done it personally - but the following person knows much more than I do (pg1 of this thread)

 

OK so as far as "older" I don't know the exact year. 

If you go to Partzilla and find the MT-07 axle 

Yamaha 4FN-22141-00-00 - SHAFT, PIVOT | Partzilla.com

---

Buy Yamaha 4FN-22141-00-00 - SHAFT, PIVOT. This OEM part is guaranteed by Yamaha's limited part warranty ✓ FREE Shipping on...

they show it fitting the MT-07 as well as 2004 R6.

However when we look at the 2004 R6 part it does not cross reference the MT-07 so I suppose we need clarity from @Spatt

 

Yamaha 5SL-25381-10-00 - AXLE, WHEEL | Partzilla.com

---

Buy Yamaha 5SL-25381-10-00 - AXLE, WHEEL. This OEM part is guaranteed by Yamaha's limited part warranty ✓ FREE Shipping on...

 

O.K., that makes sense.  I was just looking at the more modern R6's.  Good info.  Thanks!

 

[Mikektm500]

I had the same problem, I just keep a extra nut at all times.  

[Pursuvant]

Seems like there is (probably) plenty of people who are having these problems. When I was searching for an alternative nut by walking new bikes at dealership with my cheapo pocket vernier caliper & mini flashlight, a salesman asked me what up? I started to explain and he cut me off and told me all about the failing axle nuts, the shop sees them regularly.

Yamaha response, crickets......

On what (I think) is their best selling bike in company history

Edited December 9, 2020 by Pursuvant

[Yakko Warner]

If the reason to use anti-seize is to prevent corrosion, why not use blue loctite on the axle nut instead?

[blackout]

6 hours ago, Yakko Warner said:

If the reason to use anti-seize is to prevent corrosion, why not use blue loctite on the axle nut instead?

It's not for corrosion, it's for galling.   Galling is when two metals weld together from friction.   It's common with certain metals, one being titanium.  And with stainless, the bolt and nut need to be made of different types of stainless, usually 18-8 and 316 stainless. 

[blackout]

13 hours ago, Pursuvant said:

Seems like there is (probably) plenty of people who are having these problems. When I was searching for an alternative nut by walking new bikes at dealership with my cheapo pocket vernier caliper & mini flashlight, a salesman asked me what up? I started to explain and he cut me off and told me all about the failing axle nuts, the shop sees them regularly.

Yamaha response, crickets......

On what (I think) is their best selling bike in company history

And we are not over torquing.   Check out this generic chart I found.  18mm threads should be able to handle over 200 ft-lbs.

[stickeh]

the trouble with torque settings is that they differ by quite a surprising amount dependant on type of lube or going in dry, so to say.  different lubrications will result in differing coefficients of friction on the bolt.

up to 90% of the applied load can be lost to friction

50% can be lost overcoming nut face friction

40% of the applied load could be wasted overcoming friction between the threads of the bolt and the threads of the nut

only 10%  of the applied torque value could end up being any of the useful bolt load

lubrication directly affects the residual bolt load and hence the torque required to achieve this load

a bolt tightened to 80 lb/ft using a moly grease mu=0.1 it has a residual bolt load of 10 tons

a bolt tightened to the same 80 lb/ft with no lubrication will have a residual bolt load of only 1 ton

 

in laymans terms if the torque setting is for a lubed bolt and you are not using lube of an appropriate type then you will be under tightening

 

so therefore if you have a dry torque setting and are using a good lube with a low coefficient of friction you are over tightening

 

the type of material will also affect torque settings as well as what your bolting to. in my work i would not apply the same torque setting to a 300lb flange that i  would a glass lined vessel

the bottom line is if you want that factory setting then you have to use the same lube and torque setting.

I'm not a bolt expert by any means i just so happen to of after twenty five years on the tools recently had do a bullshit 'doing up bolts' course (mechanical joint integrity) despite the nature of the course it was actually ok and we did learn some stuff. most of the above is straight from the course book.

i bought a brand new in the crate yz250f and was keen to keep everything 100% and had a few minor issues with overtightening bolts despite using the book values. it was only when i did this course i realised my lube was the issue. at the time i just considered the settings over the top and trimmed back a little.

when it comes to the first time i have to do my rear axle up i will be looking at a couple of lb/ft below recommended. i haven't got round to looking in the book yet to see what is recommended re lube but i will follow it down to the make (yamalube i suspect)

 

first post btw, so hello everyone  

 

 

[DewMan]

6 hours ago, stickeh said:

first post btw, so hello everyone  

Nice entrance 

Welcome. 

[blackout]

I was lucky and found an 18mm - 1.5MM pitch tap at a local hardware store at a good price.  I  actually need it to clean threads on a wide band 02 sensor bung.  Yes, same threads as our axles, along with 18mm spark plugs.  Lol

Anyways, I used it to clean a generic axle nut I will be using and it removed a little metal and zinc plating.  This might help reducing the chance of seizure.   Maybe, maybe not...

[Pursuvant]

2021.01 I am running Fuji nut, drilled axle for R-cotter pin, anti-seize, and reduced torque to 52 ft-lbs (adjustment for the anti-seize reduced coefficient of friction plus a bit more). I don't know what the problem is, but my thoughts are 1) there's a high stainless steel content in the axle and it is galling the nut and/or (2) work stress (thx MossRider). If I have another seizure, I will cut my own sliding block to replace the "axle cover". A new stiffened sliding block could mitigate #2 if the stock axle cover is flexing.

 

DISCLAIMER please never disregard Yami design & specs.

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Pursuvant
Thx MossRider

[FZ not MT]

I'm surprised that the Gilles titanium nut is not being brought up much. So far, no problems for me, and that is without anti-seize and torqued down to 75 ft-lbs. This thread alone makes me happy I spent the $65 for that stupid nut! It's time for bellisimoto to do a group buy again. While you are at it, talk bellisimoto into including an option for the Gilles chain adjusters - they are great too!

@bellissimoto

Edited January 2, 2021 by FZ not MT