cosp600rr Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Just now, cornerslider said: "Stock" is a relative term.... They were considered "stock" as they were too new to get any on-track testing done. I'm certain they spent several thousands of dollars on Dyno-testing, and modifying intake/fueling/exhaust changes, as well as modifying the throttle bodies, as well as some head work. It's not like they pulled it out of the crate, and pulled the lights of, and called it a day- I personally have a very healthy FZ-07 motor with "stock" internal parts. I still have north of $2k in other parts to make it that healthy. I'm NOT a racer. I do a lot of track days, and help out my racer friends when I can- My superbike motor for the FZ makes 92hp on 100 octane and everything inside upgraded. Custom Pistons, Cams, Bored throttle bodies, ect ect ect built by a very reputable Moto America Twins team owner. The motor alone was less than 7K. I dont see how any team in twins is spending 15k much less 30k on the motor to run in that class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member cornerslider Posted February 24, 2022 Premium Member Share Posted February 24, 2022 Just now, cosp600rr said: My superbike motor for the FZ makes 92hp on 100 octane and everything inside upgraded. Custom Pistons, Cams, Bored throttle bodies, ect ect ect built by a very reputable Moto America Twins team owner. The motor alone was less than 7K. I dont see how any team in twins is spending 15k much less 30k on the motor to run in that class. I honestly can't answer that question.... I'm just passing on what I heard from the crew chief of the team I was a part of. Your FZ sound pretty sweet. Have you had the gears in the transmission under-cut yet? I've heard that over 90HP can take out 5th gear (actually I've seen it more than once). ""W.O.T. until you see god, then brake" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted February 24, 2022 Author Share Posted February 24, 2022 Just now, cosp600rr said: My superbike motor for the FZ makes 92hp on 100 octane and everything inside upgraded. Custom Pistons, Cams, Bored throttle bodies, ect ect ect built by a very reputable Moto America Twins team owner. The motor alone was less than 7K. I dont see how any team in twins is spending 15k much less 30k on the motor to run in that class. For an FZ build to ~90hp, 7k-10k is right. You've done it. So have I. It can be a bit more, I suppose if you buy a brand new crate engine and built it from scratch, but including the cost of the engine, I'd say 7k is good cost. Anything near 20-30k is gross exaggeration. The RS660 "claims" 100 -- at the crank, so at the wheel, it's likely 85-90. With exhaust, tune, air filter, you push it up, what 5-7hp? But no, to keep things even in MotoAmerica, you definitely cannot modify intake, head, throttle bodies, etc. You can look up "MotoAmerica competitor Bulletin Aprilia RS660 Restrictions." It's all right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosp600rr Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Just now, cornerslider said: I honestly can't answer that question.... I'm just passing on what I heard from the crew chief of the team I was a part of. Your FZ sound pretty sweet. Have you had the gears in the transmission under-cut yet? I've heard that over 90HP can take out 5th gear (actually I've seen it more than once). Yes, gears were undercut when the motor was built. I asked for the most reliable most power fz I could get. Its basically the same motor several of the Moto America guys have ran at the front of the pack in previous years. PS. Im sure you can guess who built it for me. LOL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosp600rr Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) Just now, jb.junior said: For an FZ build to ~90hp, 7k-10k is right. You've done it. So have I. It can be a bit more, I suppose if you buy a brand new crate engine and built it from scratch, but including the cost of the engine, I'd say 7k is good cost. Anything near 20-30k is gross exaggeration. The RS660 "claims" 100 -- at the crank, so at the wheel, it's likely 85-90. With exhaust, tune, air filter, you push it up, what 5-7hp? But no, to keep things even in MotoAmerica, you definitely cannot modify intake, head, throttle bodies, etc. You can look up "MotoAmerica competitor Bulletin Aprilia RS660 Restrictions." It's all right there. The RS660 makes 95-96hp at he wheel on MGP Moto America fuel. 100hp on MR12. I know this as I raced with a guy last year in our club that also went to Moto America and tuned his bike for MGP fuel. You are going to need as much as you can get out of your FZ motor to keep up with the 660. Mine at 92hp struggled with the long straights. Off the corner it pulls harder but not on the long run. Edited February 24, 2022 by cosp600rr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted February 24, 2022 Author Share Posted February 24, 2022 Just now, cosp600rr said: The RS660 makes 95-96hp at he wheel on MGP Moto America fuel. 100hp on MR12. I know this as I raced with a guy last year in our club that also went to Moto America and tuned his bike for MGP fuel. You are going to need as much as you can get out of your FZ motor to keep up with the 660. Mine at 92hp struggled with the long straights. Of the corner it pulls harder but not on the long run. Yeah, so I was about right (85-90 + 5-7 = xxx). Yes, all these figures, I'm assuming MGP. Indeed MR12 is another game. I'm shooting for around 90hp on this new SB build. I think my last build was 88 on U4.4, but that that was when it was first dyno'd. I had it towards the end of its life, so it must have been down at least a few, as a rebuild was long overdue, and it needs a lot of new parts... But even then, it ran pretty good at the top end. Yeah, most Aprilia's would get away, but they were often steered by a better rider than me... I ran in a lot of leagues last year, against a lot of good people, and against quite a few Apes. Most Apes outran me on the straight, but I definitely beat a few across the finish line... Any idea how much one weighs, race ready? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosp600rr Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Just now, jb.junior said: Yeah, so I was about right (85-90 + 5-7 = xxx). Yes, all these figures, I'm assuming MGP. Indeed MR12 is another game. I'm shooting for around 90hp on this new SB build. I think my last build was 88 on U4.4, but that that was when it was first dyno'd. I had it towards the end of its life, so it must have been down at least a few, as a rebuild was long overdue, and it needs a lot of new parts... But even then, it ran pretty good at the top end. Yeah, most Aprilia's would get away, but they were often steered by a better rider than me... I ran in a lot of leagues last year, against a lot of good people, and against quite a few Apes. Most Apes outran me on the straight, but I definitely beat a few across the finish line... Any idea how much one weighs, race ready? Not sure on the weight but I could ask him. See if he knows. Ill let you know if I find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted February 24, 2022 Author Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) Just now, cosp600rr said: Not sure on the weight but I could ask him. See if he knows. Ill let you know if I find out. That'd be cool. I know a few guys who ran them as well. They look awesome, and I hear that they handle great. But I know a lot of people had a lot of trouble with the rider aids and computers (resetting adaptation when changing sprockets, etc.), and often had to miss races mid-day because of it. I love the FZ. I thought about changing to the Ape, but I had a really great year on a Yamaha last year, got to know it well, and find it simpler, and seemingly more reliable, so I'm sticking with it. Yes, the engine build cost is off-putting, but that is largely offset by how cheap you can buy an entire new bike. They are going all day long (for like 2019 models) on cycletrader for <$7k. I'm going to get a new one soon and start a second build as parts become more available again; if not for a club bike or back-up / parts chassis. My current bike is down to 339 lbs. I've actually weighed it. I hear all kinds of tall-tales about them getting down to <320, but I can't see how. At least not following MotoA rules, anyway. Edited February 24, 2022 by jb.junior gmr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosp600rr Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Just now, jb.junior said: That'd be cool. I know a few guys who ran them as well. They look awesome, and I head that they handle great. But I know a lot of people had a lot of trouble with the rider aids and computers (resetting adaptation when changing sprockets, etc.), and often had to miss races mid-day because of it. I love the FZ. I thought about changing to the Ape, but I had a really great year on a Yamaha last year, got to know it well, and find it simpler, and seemingly more reliable, so I'm sticking with it. Yes, the engine build cost is off-putting, but that is largely offset by how cheap you can buy an entire new bike. They are going all day long (for like 2019 models) on cycletrader for <$7k. I'm goin to get a new one soon and start a second build; if not for a club bike or back-up / parts chassis. My current bike is down to 339 lbs. I've actually weighed it. I hear all kinds of tall-tales about then getting down to 320, but I can't see how. At least not following MotoA rules, anyway. 340 is what he says the 660 weighs in race trim so your right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted February 24, 2022 Author Share Posted February 24, 2022 Just now, cosp600rr said: 340 is what he says the 660 weighs in race trim so your right there. Damn. I wonder how that's possible with all those computers and such. Maybe the frame and or block is just lighter. I'm waiting on a LW front wheel that should drop another two pounds. After that, I'm not sure what else I can do. I'd love a lightweight rear rotor, but no one seems to make one for the FZ, and I can't find someone to mill it. Any idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosp600rr Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Just now, jb.junior said: Damn. I wonder how that's possible with all those computers and such. Maybe the frame and or block is just lighter. I'm waiting on a LW front wheel that should drop another two pounds. After that, I'm not sure what else I can do. I'd love a lightweight rear rotor, but no one seems to make one for the FZ, and I can't find someone to mill it. Any idea? I don't. Sorry. I havent looked back but I thought you had the R6 wheel conversion on yours? Are the new light wheels for the R6 or for the FZ07? If they are R6 why wouldnt the R6 rotor work? I dont know much about the wheels or conversion as Im still running stock wheels. Im just a club racer and I think my advantage is my own personal weight. LOL. I typically come to race season at about 145 pounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted February 24, 2022 Author Share Posted February 24, 2022 Just now, cosp600rr said: I don't. Sorry. I havent looked back but I thought you had the R6 wheel conversion on yours? Are the new light wheels for the R6 or for the FZ07? If they are R6 why wouldnt the R6 rotor work? I dont know much about the wheels or conversion as Im still running stock wheels. Im just a club racer and I think my advantage is my own personal weight. LOL. I typically come to race season at about 145 pounds. I have an FZ rear wheel, and my current lightweight rear is a Galespeed GPS1 for the FZ/MT09. The R6 rear wheel conversion seems to be the way to go, if not, I think, just because of more aftermarket wheel options. And to have the option for the lightweight R6 rear rotor, of which there are many. I was going to do the R6 conversion, but man, I searched all last fall and winter to find any lightweight wheels and simply could not find a thing. So all that I could find was the single Galespeed for an FZ. I have an Apex-6 (R6/ R1) front coming, so they won't match, but that's ok. I'm trying to get a second set of both, but I can't find a second Galespeed rear -- ugh! So I may end up re-selling these later on so I can get two sets that match. Otherwise, it's two types of sprockets. Yeah, being light is good. I lost some weight and am down to mid-160s. Where do you race? Did the "guys in Ohio" build your engine / bike? They rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosp600rr Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) Just now, jb.junior said: I have an FZ rear wheel, and my current lightweight rear is a Galespeed GPS1 for the FZ/MT09. The R6 rear wheel conversion seems to be the way to go, if not, I think, just because of more aftermarket wheel options. And to have the option for the lightweight R6 rear rotor, of which there are many. I was going to do the R6 conversion, but man, I searched all last fall and winter to find any lightweight wheels and simply could not find a thing. So all that I could find was the single Galespeed for an FZ. I have an Apex-6 (R6/ R1) front coming, so they won't match, but that's ok. I'm trying to get a second set of both, but I can't find a second Galespeed rear -- ugh! So I may end up re-selling these later on so I can get two sets that match. Otherwise, it's two types of sprockets. Yeah, being light is good. I lost some weight and am down to mid-160s. Where do you race? Did the "guys in Ohio" build your engine / bike? They rule. LOL. Yes the "guys in Ohio" built my engine last winter. We also add the aRacer electronics for the ecu, quickshifter ect. Much better than the FTecu that was in it previously. Motor is very fun, shifts amazingly easy and smooth. Fun bike to ride for sure. I think the R6 option is the way to go if your looking for light weight options and availability. Good luck and I hope you get it all sorted and ridable soon. Oh and I race in Colorado with the MRA. Edited February 24, 2022 by cosp600rr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted February 24, 2022 Author Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) Just now, cosp600rr said: LOL. Yes the "guys in Ohio" built my engine last winter. We also add the aRacer electronics for the ecu, quickshifter ect. Much better than the FTecu that was in it previously. Motor is very fun, shifts amazingly easy and smooth. Fun bike to ride for sure. I think the R6 option is the way to go if your looking for light weight options and availability. Good luck and I hope you get it all sorted and ridable soon. That's awesome. They are great. Your engine must be awesome. I spoke with them about building me one from scratch for this season, but I got worried about parts availability and decided to rebuild my current bike instead. But I buy a lot of stuff from them. True! Thanks. We're getting there. Edited February 24, 2022 by jb.junior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosp600rr Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) Just now, jb.junior said: That's awesome. They are great. Your engine must be awesome. I spoke with them about building me one from scratch for this season, but I got worried about parts availability and decided to rebuild my current bike instead. But I buy a lot of stuff from them. True! Thanks. We're getting there. I dropped my bike off to them at Thanksgiving of 2020 and picked it back up in April of 2021 about 2 weeks before my season started. It was very close as the parts are on very long lead times. They did a great job with it all just had me a little stressed about getting it back in time. It all worked out though. Edited February 24, 2022 by cosp600rr Years were off by 1 LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted February 24, 2022 Author Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) Just now, cosp600rr said: I dropped my bike off to them at Thanksgiving of 2019 and picked it back up in April of 2020 about 2 weeks before my season started. It was very close as the parts are on very long lead times. They did a great job with it all just had me a little stressed about getting it back in time. It all worked out though. Yeah, that's a while. I couldn't risk not having a bike until April, so I just rebuilt what I had. I'm on a practice / coaching "plan" (or was...). Hope to get on the track ASAP. I dropped my engine off in November, and it's still not done. Was waiting on parts, mostly. But I got most other things on the bike sorted out. In a normal year, I should have had the engine in January. I planned things out great, and in a normal year, I would have assumed a timely new build by February, if I committed in November, but this supply-chain has been effing bullsh*t. Edited February 24, 2022 by jb.junior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scratchpad Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 8 hours ago, jb.junior said: Did the "guys in Ohio" build your engine / bike? They rule. Haha! were you giggling like a lil school girl when you wrote that. You sound like a nutrider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scratchpad Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 10 hours ago, cornerslider said: I think you are one that is saying stupid things..... I don't know you, or any of the parties involved with this $hit-$how. Being that it's on a public forum, I'm chiming in. In the grand scheme of things, all the parts and labor involved here are pretty small numbers. I've been a part of the MA race team (Blu-line racing) for the Twins Cup. We ran mid-pack on a $15K motor. Those in front of us ran motors well north of $30K motors.... Running MA is expensive! Done right, a weekend is going to cost you $2,500- if you go "all-in" (and that's if you don't wreck anything). Even after all the weight reductions, and running a stock motor- I think you would have a tough time making it through qualifying. I'm sure you are very talented racer, but MA is FULL of very high-caliber racers- on highly modified/lightweight bikes. I'm NOT trying to be a dick, but MA is filled with fast guys, with deep pockets/sponsors to get them there. I seriously wish you the best with this race season- Guys spend $7- north of $10 on engines but still dont win club races or club championships before stepping up to MA. Its cool, they get to put Pro Racer on their social media. Truth be told i went the fastest with a bone stock motor on the FZ07, club race. $7-$12 on an engine wont help much in MA no matter how you slice it. The talent is on a whole other level. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member cornerslider Posted February 25, 2022 Premium Member Share Posted February 25, 2022 BIR is the most local "big" track in my area. Last season MA came to BIR (for the first time in 17 years). A local racer asked me if I though any of the locals had a chance to "make a name for themselves".... I said "not a chance". He looked at me like I was nuts? He thought the locals doing MA would have the upper hand, since they have so many laps on THAT track. I politely told him that it would be like taking a high school football team to play in the super bowl... It really is THAT big of a difference- 1 ""W.O.T. until you see god, then brake" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted February 25, 2022 Author Share Posted February 25, 2022 11 hours ago, cornerslider said: BIR is the most local "big" track in my area. Last season MA came to BIR (for the first time in 17 years). A local racer asked me if I though any of the locals had a chance to "make a name for themselves".... I said "not a chance". He looked at me like I was nuts? He thought the locals doing MA would have the upper hand, since they have so many laps on THAT track. I politely told him that it would be like taking a high school football team to play in the super bowl... It really is THAT big of a difference- Plenty of "local" club racers do ok at MotoAmerica on their home tracks. Everybody is "local" somewhere, right? And it's usually advantageous for most people to be at their "home track." Obviously, the superbike class is a different animal, but regarding 1000 Stock and Twins, "locals" often do ok. Regarding BIR, I raced the June CRA race there and got to know a few. Brett Donohue is one of the better twins guys local there, and he did pretty well at Road America, and I think Brainerd. The MotoA website is acting weird, but I think he had a couple of top tens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted March 29, 2022 Author Share Posted March 29, 2022 (edited) Heart Transplant: I picked up this original AP built FZ07 last week, and it will become my back-up / second bike. Because my superbike build is still not ready, we swapped this engine and put it in to my "A" bike chassis. The AP bike was a great find, with 568 original miles, and an engine that was recently dyno'd at 93hp on pump gas. It was never raced and just had a few track days on it from a casual rider. I'm swapping out some parts and components to make it as identical as possible to the "A" bike. (I'll likely have some parts for sale on here from it.) Once the SB engine being built is ready, I'll keep it as a back up and bring this AP bike as a "rolling chassis" for spares and such for MotoA. (They don't allow a full second bike, at least in Twins, which I think is a silly rule, because it just increases one's labor costs, instead of decreasing overall costs. To me, it's much easier, and even cheaper, to just be allowed to have a second bike...) Bones: Between the bike and I, sprung weight is down ~17 lbs. Both front and rear suspension were on the stiff side last year, anyway, so we've dropped the front from .95 to .925 (.9 in the left fork; .95 in the right). Rear shock went to a 625 lb. from a 675. I have the Robem rear linkage. The rear spring rate range is really big on this bike, depending on what linkage it has. The AP bike I just bought has a AP linkage, and you can tell it's a lot less "long," i.e., has a lot less leverage being applied on the spring, and has a 600 lb. spring. Other: Put some engine covers on the new engine. Put an R7 throttle cable on, which is about .8" shorter than the FZ cable, but it's still too long with this body kit, the way that I have things set up. It will work safely, but is partially blocking the view of my instrument cluster. I'm working with Motion Pro to get a custom one. Going with FZ length -3". 4-cell Antigravity battery cranked the stock engine just fine. With this higher compression SB engine, it struggles, so I put in an 8 cell, which is .5 lbs heavier. That's ok. Geared 16/45; prepped for Atlanta. Actually weighed Flexiglass total set versus this Sharkskinz / AP set. The Flexiglass is .4 lbs. lighter. Edited March 29, 2022 by jb.junior 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member cornerslider Posted March 30, 2022 Premium Member Share Posted March 30, 2022 NICE find!!!! Andy Palmer lives not too far from me. What GREAT guy to deal with- and he DEFINATELY knows his stuff!!! I picked up a second set of "07" take-off wheels from Andy last summer. Just out of curiosity, why isn't the AP bike going to be your "A" bike? It seems like it would be less work? Unless AP motor doesn't have the full superbike built motor? Good luck this season. I'll be looking for you. I do the full MA "live" pass - ""W.O.T. until you see god, then brake" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted March 30, 2022 Author Share Posted March 30, 2022 (edited) Just now, cornerslider said: NICE find!!!! Andy Palmer lives not too far from me. What GREAT guy to deal with- and he DEFINATELY knows his stuff!!! I picked up a second set of "07" take-off wheels from Andy last summer. Just out of curiosity, why isn't the AP bike going to be your "A" bike? It seems like it would be less work? Unless AP motor doesn't have the full superbike built motor? Good luck this season. I'll be looking for you. I do the full MA "live" pass - Howdy. Good find, indeed... Yeah, I've heard great things about Andy. I reached out to him to ask some details about it, and he did call me back (he's kind of hard to get a hold of, typically, so I was pumped...), but I missed his call. He's the "godfather" of the Fz-07R. That's a good question. And the answer is largely a matter of preference and "feel." The chassis on my "A" bike is what I've been used to, and what is what I've recently changed, updated, tested, raced and have a good feel of. The ergonomics are where I want them, I know what componentry feels like (AK forks, my Penske set up, Woodcraft clip ons and rear sets, rear linkage, triple clamp), and would either have to totally swap that equipment over to the AP bike, get in a rush and buy a second set of everything and put it there, or just get used to what's on there. As for the latter, I don't really have time, or want, to get used to a whole new bike right now. I'm going to practice in Atlanta this weekend, and need for that set up that I test and adjust this weekend to be what I'm going to ride at MotoAmerica there next month. You get f*ck-all time for practice on MotoA race weekend, so I need to show up with the bike pretty damn close to what it needs to be for qualifying. In short, it's not a great weekend to get used to a whole new chassis... Moreover, believe it or not, that AP bike, by my spreadsheet, is about 16 lbs. heavier than my "A" bike. A lot of that could be dropped quickly (lithium vs. lead battery, wheels), but I'm soon going to buy a second set identical stuff to put on the bike, and just don't have time to wait for it now. Even though the stuff that's on there is excellent, it's "different." Lastly, the bike isn't MotoAmerica legal at this point. For sure it needs an airbox, which is a pain in the ass to procure and fabricate, I don't have sponsor decals or MotoAmerica approved plates for that body work, and there may be some other minor things that I haven't noticed that I'd need to modify or fix before I'd feel certain about bringing it to MotoAmerica tech. Thank you. I'm bummed that I missed the first race. What a mess. But I've been training hard, and the bike is in bitchin' shape right now... Edited March 30, 2022 by jb.junior 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member cornerslider Posted March 30, 2022 Premium Member Share Posted March 30, 2022 That makes sense.... Ride what's light and comfortable to you. Andy is tough to reach for sure. He's done more for the FZ-07R world than anybody on the planet!!! Stay after him, and he WILL get back to you (and it will be worth it). Good luck this season - 1 ""W.O.T. until you see god, then brake" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jb.junior Posted March 30, 2022 Author Share Posted March 30, 2022 (edited) Just now, cornerslider said: That makes sense.... Ride what's light and comfortable to you. Andy is tough to reach for sure. He's done more for the FZ-07R world than anybody on the planet!!! Stay after him, and he WILL get back to you (and it will be worth it). Good luck this season - Thanks. Field looks tough this year. Lots of talent and fast bikes. I've got the firepower, and have done the work to prepare physically and organizationally, so now it's just a matter of if I can perform and qualify! Edited March 30, 2022 by jb.junior 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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