RaceTech Emulators vs Traxxion AR-25 vs Cartridge Kits

[navid]

Hi, I wanted some advice on these options for upgrading the front end. I mostly ride on the street and plan to track occasionally. I ordered a Ktech Razor Lite for the rear. For the front, I have pre-load adjustable caps and 15wt oil. I weigh ~135 lbs (without gear) and I think I'm close to the jackpot with stock springs.

I'm currently thinking of the RaceTech emulators. It is far cheaper ($200) than the AR-25 ($500) and cartridges ($700+). I wanted to know, how the AR-25 kit differs from the RaceTech emulators. And also, how much better will a full cartridge kit (like Ohlins Nix 22) be? 

If you've tried one or more of these solutions, may you share your experience? Thanks.

Edited November 18 by navid

[tomlichu]

I do not have either, but I know @cornerslider has gotten both. Threads are listed below.

It boils down to if you are willing to spend the extra time with GVEs: replace your springs (if OEM is not right for you), drill out your damper rods, and adjust the damping to your liking. Traxxion is already setup based on your general riding style and weight with the correct springs. The price difference may not be as big if you have to buy different springs if you are too light/heavy for OEM for the GVEs.
 

 

 

[navid]

8 minutes ago, tomlichu said:

I do not have either, but I know @cornerslider has gotten both. Threads are listed below.

It boils down to if you are willing to spend the extra time with GVEs: replace your springs (if OEM is not right for you), drill out your damper rods, and adjust the damping to your liking. Traxxion is already setup based on your general riding style and weight with the correct springs. The price difference may not be as big if you have to buy different springs if you are too light/heavy for OEM for the GVEs.
 

 

 

Thanks, this is really helpful. @cornerslider If you can share you're experience on how the AR-25 improves on GVEs, I'd really appreciate it.

 

The thing is, the "alleged" stock spring rate (~ .75) is really close for my weight. If Traxxion is willing to sell me just the rods, it becomes a much more tempting offer.

[M. Hausknecht]

I used Race Tech emulators 30 years ago on a race bike and a street bike with damper rod forks when there were no better options. Adjustment required a combination of fork oil weight and adjusting spring pressure on the emulator. Once I got settings I was comfortable with on both bikes, i left them alone. They worked well enough with the tires then available, and appreciably better than the stock forks.

I have no experience with the AR-25 but I'd be concerned with the apparent lack of adjustability. You want different damping with different springs. Damping and fork springs good for a 200lb rider won't work well for a 130lb rider on appropriately softer springs; there will be excessive rebound damping, in particular. Still, I imagine they are better than the stock forks.

I have Ohlins Nix22 cartridges on my 07 race bike. Their advantage, and the advantage of better cartridges generally, is that they are easily and quickly adjustable for rebound and compression damping (preload too, but you have that function already). They also typically feature "better" damping, and can be rebuilt and have their damping curves altered by anyone with the tools and knowledge. The easy adjustability is very useful on the race track, once and if you're riding fast enough to appreciate the damping changes. Many track day riders with cartridge forks just "set and forget" their suspensions, so their superior adjustability is only a minor convenience for those folks. They just aren't trying to go fast enough to need all the traction the tires can provide when suspension movement is optimally controlled.   

 

[navid]

48 minutes ago, M. Hausknecht said:

I used Race Tech emulators 30 years ago on a race bike and a street bike with damper rod forks when there were no better options. Adjustment required a combination of fork oil weight and adjusting spring pressure on the emulator. Once I got settings I was comfortable with on both bikes, i left them alone. They worked well enough with the tires then available, and appreciably better than the stock forks.

I have no experience with the AR-25 but I'd be concerned with the apparent lack of adjustability. You want different damping with different springs. Damping and fork springs good for a 200lb rider won't work well for a 130lb rider on appropriately softer springs; there will be excessive rebound damping, in particular. Still, I imagine they are better than the stock forks.

I have Ohlins Nix22 cartridges on my 07 race bike. Their advantage, and the advantage of better cartridges generally, is that they are easily and quickly adjustable for rebound and compression damping (preload too, but you have that function already). They also typically feature "better" damping, and can be rebuilt and have their damping curves altered by anyone with the tools and knowledge. The easy adjustability is very useful on the race track, once and if you're riding fast enough to appreciate the damping changes. Many track day riders with cartridge forks just "set and forget" their suspensions, so their superior adjustability is only a minor convenience for those folks. They just aren't trying to go fast enough to need all the traction the tires can provide when suspension movement is optimally controlled.   

 

Thanks, appreciate your insight.

 

My preferences were similar. The AR-25s are close enough to price where I would just fork out the extra cost for cartridges.

[Bermanator]

This is a very helpful topic, I was actually considering both of these options for my 2017. My issue is I'm in Canada, so buying the AR-25 kit will cost me over $800-900CAD with the current state of the Canadian dollar, whereas I can easily just purchase springs and the GVE kit for $500CAD from a Canadian retailer. Obviously the AR-25 kit will definitely be a better option, but I'm still debating on if it's really worth it for the $300-400 increase in price. I mainly just do street riding and commuting as there isn't much for twisties here, and I don't really have an interest in getting into tracking my FZ. I'm leaning towards saving a few bucks and making it good enough since I'm not riding it hard enough to really appreciate the difference between the AR-25 kit and the GVEs + spring upgrade.

[klx678]

On 11/18/2024 at 11:29 AM, Bermanator said:

This is a very helpful topic, I was actually considering both of these options for my 2017. My issue is I'm in Canada, so buying the AR-25 kit will cost me over $800-900CAD with the current state of the Canadian dollar, whereas I can easily just purchase springs and the GVE kit for $500CAD from a Canadian retailer. Obviously the AR-25 kit will definitely be a better option, but I'm still debating on if it's really worth it for the $300-400 increase in price. I mainly just do street riding and commuting as there isn't much for twisties here, and I don't really have an interest in getting into tracking my FZ. I'm leaning towards saving a few bucks and making it good enough since I'm not riding it hard enough to really appreciate the difference between the AR-25 kit and the GVEs + spring upgrade.

Once you figure things out if you have to buy something in the U.S. why not plan a trip down, then replace the parts while here and "forget" that you did so when going home across the border.  Heck you could probably have a shop do the work for less than the $300-400 increase.   Do you know anyone in the U.S. who could help if that is a possibility?  

[Bermanator]

16 hours ago, klx678 said:

Once you figure things out if you have to buy something in the U.S. why not plan a trip down, then replace the parts while here and "forget" that you did so when going home across the border.  Heck you could probably have a shop do the work for less than the $300-400 increase.   Do you know anyone in the U.S. who could help if that is a possibility?  

The problem is the currency conversion, the kit is $500US, so if I pay for that with my Canadian credit card, it'll automatically bump right up to $700CAD. And if I bought it and had it shipped to Canada, then there's taxes at the border plus brokerage fees. I could ship it to Port Huron in Michigan and jump across the border to self declare it, but I'd maybe only save $100. Unless I didn't declare it then probably $200... But that's not worth the risk of them searching my car and finding it.

I don't know anyone either that lives in Michigan whose place I could do the work at... And if a shop did it, then I'd have to cover the cost of labour anyway, when I really want to do the work myself to learn.

[klx678]

It was a thought though. Maybe someone here is near Port Huron should that become a possibility.

[Bermanator]

3 hours ago, klx678 said:

It was a thought though. Maybe someone here is near Port Huron should that become a possibility.

Yeah I appreciate it, but I just don't think it's in the cards for me at the moment to get the AR-25 kit. I might just upgrade the springs to get me by, then save up for the kit for next winter.

[tomlichu]

1 hour ago, Bermanator said:

Yeah I appreciate it, but I just don't think it's in the cards for me at the moment to get the AR-25 kit. I might just upgrade the springs to get me by, then save up for the kit for next winter.

You might get more gains if you upgrade the rear first if you have not already.

[Bermanator]

4 hours ago, tomlichu said:

You might get more gains if you upgrade the rear first if you have not already.

Unfortunately that's $750 + tax on its own too... I'm on a bit of a budget for the next few months and I've gotta put new tires on it in the spring as mine are from 2015 and 2016... But I just want to reduce the brake dive for now, then upgrade from there.

[cornerslider]

I've been meaning to chime in here.... I'm recovering from knee surgery, and been laid-up since Monday. I'll try to keep this short.

I started with the Race Tech Emulators. They "work", but are very cumbersome. The install is a P.I.T.A. The instructions are terrible. You have to re-drill holes, and add more holes in the dampening rod, and do your own set-up on the emulators- to their recommended settings. There are a variety of different springs/plates included as these are "generic" kits, based only on fork tube diameter. They include one time "pass-code" to a link on their website It's up to YOU to set it up properly (l recommend taking a screenshot ).Just about the time you feel your making progress on the install, you will realize that you need to to order an "adapter" ring for the FZ/MT-07 (from Race Tech). It's an inexpensive part, but very irritating as you can't re-assemble the forks until the adapter ring arrives...... Once the kit is installed, It does do a MUCH better job than the OEM fork internals. I was pretty happy with the set-up Race Tech recommended. I ran this set-up for about 4 seasons, with no issues.

When Traxxion-Dynamics launched the AR-25 kit, I was interested. I was happy enough with the Race Tech set-up, but I know Traxxion Dynamics builds nice stuff!!! I assumed they were "better", I just didn't know by how much? I pulled the trigger on them. You give them your information about your weight, riding style, etc. Traxxion Dynamics does the whole set-up (valving, springs, and oil) in a personalized kit. Install was half the time of the Race Tech, as you don't have to assemble the valves/drill holes, ect. After spending some time with them, they are a superior product (in my humble opinion). 

For street, or mild track-day riding, both these products are good options. It's just matter of how much you need them, and how much you want to spend? I did track days for many years on both of these, with great success. I decided to get my race license at 53 years old. I raced on the Traxxion Dynamics AR-25 set-up for one season. It was "okay", but if you're considering racing, I'd recommend a full cartridge set-up. After a year of racing, I determined that my body was a little too old/beat-up to risk injury. I'm 55 years old now, and still coach with my local track-day organization. I recently shipped my forks to Kyle Onsorg, of Adrenaline Engineering- to add more dampening. Kyle works with Traxxion Dynamics (as well as all suspension manufacturers), and will be able to set them up "better". That being said,  they will never do what a full cartridge kit will do. 

[cornerslider]

On 11/18/2024 at 12:30 AM, navid said:

Thanks, this is really helpful. @cornerslider If you can share you're experience on how the AR-25 improves on GVEs, I'd really appreciate it.

 

The thing is, the "alleged" stock spring rate (~ .75) is really close for my weight. If Traxxion is willing to sell me just the rods, it becomes a much more tempting offer.

I understand what you are saying, but not all fork springs are created equal...... Dampening rod forks (OEM) use what's called a "progressive rate" spring. It's designed to suit wide variety of rider weights, to make them "okay" for the masses. They do an okay job, and keep the OEM price tag on the bike low. If you're going with a kit, I'd highly recommend proper "straight rate" springs. If you ever decide to sell your bike, you can always pull the AR-25 kit off, and go back to "stock, and sell the kit. With the Race Tech emulators kit, there's no going back. Once you drill out the dampener rod, you're committed to it...... Hope that helps-

[navid]

2 hours ago, cornerslider said:

I understand what you are saying, but not all fork springs are created equal...... Dampening rod forks (OEM) use what's called a "progressive rate" spring. It's designed to suit wide variety of rider weights, to make them "okay" for the masses. They do an okay job, and keep the OEM price tag on the bike low. If you're going with a kit, I'd highly recommend proper "straight rate" springs. If you ever decide to sell your bike, you can always pull the AR-25 kit off, and go back to "stock, and sell the kit. With the Race Tech emulators kit, there's no going back. Once you drill out the dampener rod, you're committed to it...... Hope that helps-

I can't thank you enough. This helps out a lot. I'm leaning towards cartridges - the AR-25 kit comes close to the price of cartridges where I think it's worth the extra money for adjustability for me (even if my skill don't need it).

 

I initially was leaning emulators (I've read the forum posts and knew to pre-order the adapter ). But realized that if I spend the money, I'd rather spend enough where I won't have a "what if" on the back of my head. I love this bike and I think a few hundred extra is worth it over the thousands of miles.

[cornerslider]

22 hours ago, navid said:

I can't thank you enough. This helps out a lot. I'm leaning towards cartridges - the AR-25 kit comes close to the price of cartridges where I think it's worth the extra money for adjustability for me (even if my skill don't need it).

 

I initially was leaning emulators (I've read the forum posts and knew to pre-order the adapter ). But realized that if I spend the money, I'd rather spend enough where I won't have a "what if" on the back of my head. I love this bike and I think a few hundred extra is worth it over the thousands of miles.

One thing you "may" want to consider....... I've owned many dedicated "track-only" bikes, and spent a small fortune on high end suspension components. I've experienced what I call "analysis-paralysis". Most high end suspensions have too many adjustments for the average track day rider to really utilize (without hiring a professional suspension tuner). If I remember correctly, my K-Tech Razor "R" on my FZ-07 has 16-clicks of compression dampening, and 28-clicks of rebound dampening. The chances of me finding the absolute "sweet-spot" on set up is unlikely..... I put a K-Tech Razor "lite" on one of my R3's, and found it much easier to set up to my liking, as there were less variables. If I could do it over again, I'd have gone with the Razor "lite" on my FZ-07, and saved several hundred dollars (to accomplish pretty much the same results). Front end cartridge suspension is pretty much the same as a rear shock. Too many variables can get overwhelming......

That being said, I recently picked up a 2024 KTM Duke 390 (for the street). The OEM suspension has adjustable suspension. The front end has 5-clicks of compression, and 5-clicks rebound. The rear shock has 5-clicks of rebound. I found it MUCH easier to set up to my liking, as each "click" makes a much more noticeable difference. I have no plans to upgrade the OEM suspension on my KTM. It behaves the way I like it. Hope that helps-

[navid]

12 hours ago, cornerslider said:

One thing you "may" want to consider....... I've owned many dedicated "track-only" bikes, and spent a small fortune on high end suspension components. I've experienced what I call "analysis-paralysis". Most high end suspensions have too many adjustments for the average track day rider to really utilize (without hiring a professional suspension tuner). If I remember correctly, my K-Tech Razor "R" on my FZ-07 has 16-clicks of compression dampening, and 28-clicks of rebound dampening. The chances of me finding the absolute "sweet-spot" on set up is unlikely..... I put a K-Tech Razor "lite" on one of my R3's, and found it much easier to set up to my liking, as there were less variables. If I could do it over again, I'd have gone with the Razor "lite" on my FZ-07, and saved several hundred dollars (to accomplish pretty much the same results). Front end cartridge suspension is pretty much the same as a rear shock. Too many variables can get overwhelming......

That being said, I recently picked up a 2024 KTM Duke 390 (for the street). The OEM suspension has adjustable suspension. The front end has 5-clicks of compression, and 5-clicks rebound. The rear shock has 5-clicks of rebound. I found it MUCH easier to set up to my liking, as each "click" makes a much more noticeable difference. I have no plans to upgrade the OEM suspension on my KTM. It behaves the way I like it. Hope that helps-

I actually just finished installing the Razor R Lite on my FZ-07 today. Haven't ridden it yet, but I could immediately tell the difference of having a spring rated for my weight just by sitting on it. Looking forward to seeing how it works out :).

 

The OEM shock had zero static sag and hardly budged with me on it (zero preload). I literally used to stand up in those highway bumps over bridges so that the bike wouldn't piledrive my spine.

[Erci]

You've already got enough feedback, but I'll throw in my 2 cents:

I have Ktech Lite rear with AR-25 front. I found the bike in stock form to be appalling on rough pavement / expansion joints (lots of both, in VT). 

Ktech rear is outstanding.. completely changed the way it reacts. AR-25 does enough for street riding. It mostly takes away the harsh hydro-lock and pogo-stick of the stock damper when hitting big bumps. However, if I had any plans to track this bike, I would absolutely go full cartridge. Gotta be able to make adjustments quickly to really dial it in, without having to change oil.. also may need to change settings from track to track.

[navid]

49 minutes ago, Erci said:

You've already got enough feedback, but I'll throw in my 2 cents:

I have Ktech Lite rear with AR-25 front. I found the bike in stock form to be appalling on rough pavement / expansion joints (lots of both, in VT). 

Ktech rear is outstanding.. completely changed the way it reacts. AR-25 does enough for street riding. It mostly takes away the harsh hydro-lock and pogo-stick of the stock damper when hitting big bumps. However, if I had any plans to track this bike, I would absolutely go full cartridge. Gotta be able to make adjustments quickly to really dial it in, without having to change oil.. also may need to change settings from track to track.

Thanks, really appreciate your 2c. I'm also set on cartridges.

First ride today on the Razor Lite. Bike feels totally different and the rear soaks bumps - it compresses under heavy acceleration which will take some time to get used to. The previous shock basically gave me 0 compression - which I got pretty comfortable with haha.

Edited November 25 by navid

[M. Hausknecht]

The stock swingarm angle provides little to no anti-squat, so that when you're properly sprung, hard acceleration leads to substantial squat. That squat, among other things,makes the bike reluctant to change direction or finish a corner. You can increase preload on the shock a bit, replace the shock linkage, get a longer shock (yeah, not an option right now, I'm thinking), or live with it.

[navid]

51 minutes ago, M. Hausknecht said:

The stock swingarm angle provides little to no anti-squat, so that when you're properly sprung, hard acceleration leads to substantial squat. That squat, among other things,makes the bike reluctant to change direction or finish a corner. You can increase preload on the shock a bit, replace the shock linkage, get a longer shock (yeah, not an option right now, I'm thinking), or live with it.

I'm pretty sure the length is adjustable though. Didn't do it now as I didn't wanna mess with the geometry it comes with.

[Erci]

1 hour ago, navid said:

I'm pretty sure the length is adjustable though. Didn't do it now as I didn't wanna mess with the geometry it comes with.

Yup, it's adjustable on ktech. I started out in with OEM length, but ended up increasing length by 3mm which raises the rear by ~9mm. I also raised the fork legs up in the trees by 7mm. If I didn't have a screen on my bike I probably would not bother, but a headlight mounted screen creates a pretty strong "hold straight line" factor at speed, making turn-ins harder. The mentioned changes helped speed up the turn-in.

[M. Hausknecht]

22 hours ago, Erci said:

Yup, it's adjustable on ktech. I started out in with OEM length, but ended up increasing length by 3mm which raises the rear by ~9mm. I also raised the fork legs up in the trees by 7mm. If I didn't have a screen on my bike I probably would not bother, but a headlight mounted screen creates a pretty strong "hold straight line" factor at speed, making turn-ins harder. The mentioned changes helped speed up the turn-in.

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