Wrong fork bushings installed at factory - heavy wear ensues

[rick]

Spent some decades of my riding with old BMW R bikes - that had no bushings. Wasn't inside the K bike's forks for a look and my Apirlia's Showa's also have not been opened far enough to see the bushings, diving in this far is sorta new to me. I got in there only to install cartridges. Big gap, small gap - neither here nor there to me.
 
But the wear I saw is a problem.
 
Wonder if the bronze on those OE bushings is not uniform thickness? The overall OD could be the same, but the coating at the end gaps might be thinner to compensate for thicker metal. Just a thought.
 
Well, I should be 15 ft up on a ladder, sraping old paint this weekend, but if we have as much rain as forecasted, I might just open my forks up instead.

[JanM]

Except I don't measure them too small, see my previous post. The wear you guys see is normal. Regular forks in relative small diameter will flex more, reason bushings on those forks don't last as long as those in inverted forks.
Wear in fz07 is just to soon so there is something else going on. Like I said I think I know what it is, there is another pattern I noticed with this bikes that makes me believe it is related.
If I find some facts to my suspicion I will post it.

@twf did you find something else wrong with the forks? 

[twf]

No. I don't see street bikes or own one to play with it and our race bike I set up before season works great, no reason to mess with it.
It may take some time but I don't think it is fork itself as root of problem.
 
 

[bmwpowere36m3]

Still waiting for @rick to take apart his forks... curious how the All Balls bushings held up.

[rick]

As soon as this fun bit of lead based torture is done. It's all pretty much scraped and now sanded. Hoping to have it painted next weekend. Shooting for labor day weekend to pull the forks
 
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f216/rashapir/IMG_0156_zpssidnzt6m.jpg
 

[gregjet]

That's a very Gothic looking place Rick ( from what I can see. Or perhaps Palladian...
 

[rick]

It's kinda a mix of "Victorian" and "Craftsman" era styling. Lots of woodwork inside and out (nice to look at, no fun to scrape and paint, lol), stained glass windows and leaded glass valences - it's actually fairly common here and not as fancy as some much bigger houses (now in sorta bad neighborhoods from when steel was king) that have secrete stairwells and ornate tin ceiling tiles. If the deed can be believed, the house was built in 1910 and I'm thinking that dark green paint which was under at least 4 more layers, was the original color.
 
Got it primed this morning - took about 4 hours. Final coat starts at 1st light tomorrow to try and beat the heat. I'll be happy to be done with ladders for this year.
 
Time to clean the workbench downstairs and get at those cartridges. Far more fun. .

[rick]

Ahh, that's better
 
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f216/rashapir/IMG_0175_zps33nc6tic.jpg
 
Okie dokie, back on topic.
 
Just got the forks open and stopping for today. For starters, sure glad I opened 'em up cause the fluid came out pretty darn black. Can only guess it's break-in spoke from the inside of the cartridges. The 1st service on my April's front forks was really early in miles and that fluid came out pretty dark as well - though not this bad. Guys who waited to 20k miles found all manner of crud clogging up the base valves.
 
So, as much of a pita it is to waste a sunny, dry and just warm (not steamy hot) Saturday doing this work, I'm glad I'm in there now.
 
I'd recommend anyone who has these cartridges or maybe any of the bunch, to change fluid sooner than later. It'll save a whole lot of grief in the long run.
 
 

[Beemer]

Ahh, that's better  
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f216/rashapir/IMG_0175_zps33nc6tic.jpg
 
Okie dokie, back on topic.
 
Just got the forks open and stopping for today. For starters, sure glad I opened 'em up cause the fluid came out pretty darn black. Can only guess it's break-in spoke from the inside of the cartridges. The 1st service on my April's front forks was really early in miles and that fluid came out pretty dark as well - though not this bad. Guys who waited to 20k miles found all manner of crud clogging up the base valves.
 
So, as much of a pita it is to waste a sunny, dry and just warm (not steamy hot) Saturday doing this work, I'm glad I'm in there now.
 
I'd recommend anyone who has these cartridges or maybe any of the bunch, to change fluid sooner than later. It'll save a whole lot of grief in the long run.
 

Back off topic (sorry) I don't know how you went about painting that (and it looks great) but I personally wouldn't have painted something like that without an airless to make short work of it. Don't want to know what your heating bills look like, ugh! 

[bmwpowere36m3]

How did the bushings look @rick?

[rick]

The all-balls bushings looked perfect. Couldn't find any hint of wear where the OE ones showed wear somewhere around 1200 miles . Ran out of energy and time so the bike is not back together, but the new cartridge pistons are in place and the forks are back together. There's a huge difference in stiction between the OE fork seals and the all-balls seals. The tubes move with a snug feel, but the action is now smooth where the OE seals caused all sorts of stiction. Just swapping those seals and putting clean oil in made it worth it.
 
The inside of the Andreani cartridges were mirror shiny. Dunno what they looked like originally - they were no fun to open - but I'll bet they were not shiny and that's where all the black came from in the fluid. The sliders looked nice and shiny inside as well.
 
Aside from adding a base compression valve to the rebound tube, I replaced the compression piston with one of Pattonme's creations. I'll take ride impressions back to the Andreani thread tomorrow or monday
 
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f216/rashapir/IMG_0177_zpsgytqphdp.jpg

[rick]

Ahh, that's better  
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f216/rashapir/IMG_0175_zps33nc6tic.jpg
 
Okie dokie, back on topic.
 
Just got the forks open and stopping for today. For starters, sure glad I opened 'em up cause the fluid came out pretty darn black. Can only guess it's break-in spoke from the inside of the cartridges. The 1st service on my April's front forks was really early in miles and that fluid came out pretty dark as well - though not this bad. Guys who waited to 20k miles found all manner of crud clogging up the base valves.
 
So, as much of a pita it is to waste a sunny, dry and just warm (not steamy hot) Saturday doing this work, I'm glad I'm in there now.
 
I'd recommend anyone who has these cartridges or maybe any of the bunch, to change fluid sooner than later. It'll save a whole lot of grief in the long run.
 

Back off topic (sorry) I don't know how you went about painting that (and it looks great) but I personally wouldn't have painted something like that without an airless to make short work of it. Don't want to know what your heating bills look like, ugh! 

My neighbor's house was sprayed with an airless sprayers couple years ago - and so was mine in the process. White specs everywhere, windows as well - I was not pleased. Yep, took me 4 hours to prime that stuff and another 3 and change to paint, but no one else's house got painted in the process. Besides, I like kinda the painting part. I have a drawer full of Purdys 
Been ripping open interior plaster/lathe walls over the last 25 years and insulating. Combine that with a fairly high efficiency furnace and living a bit, erm, cold in the winter - well, the gas bill(heat, hot water and oven)  is not as bad as you might guess. Sure wish I could heat the garage with something better than a propane/sunflower heater

[Beemer]

rick
 
I hear ya. That is the big con about an airless sprayer. They waste a little paint like that and it's harder to cover a house than it is to cover a couch so yeah, they're definitely better suited for indoor use. Sounds like you nipped it in the bud pretty much with the insulation and high efficiency heater, those old homes just weren't built to today's standards and it's too bad you can't run water lines under your garage floor to heat the garage without paying an arm and a leg to have it done or is that cheaper to have done than I suspect? It's always better to work on a warm concrete floor vs. a cold one. Nice house anyway and I can see how it would be a pleasure to paint it by brush, it has a lot of nice detail.

[rick]

Lots of character and craftsmanship in this old building. The structure is rough-sawn white oak. Outside the studs are 1x12" boards running horizontally to keep the structure from racking. There's another inch or so out to the bricks - have no idea how they attach, lol. I've blow foamed all the gaps between the outer sheathing boards and filled the channels between the floors with 2x bits and more foam before filling with fiberglass. The old 2x4s were not cut straight when new, so putting drywall back where the plaster wall used to be can be a challenge, needing lots of 1/8-12" shim strips. This big ol house will even stay reasonably cool in the summer as long as it's not too hot for too long. I've never bothered with AC, just a couple of big ceiling fans.
 
Hmm, the garage is big (3 car), open and completely uninsulated. The doors, 6 of them hinged together into 2 units, roll/hang on a rail at the top and articulate apart at the middle into the garage along the side walls. The doors get in the way of putting any insulation on the cinder blocks walls. I have plastic flooring squares under the bikes. . It was expensive, but does a nice job of softening the cold and unforgiving harness from that concrete floor. It also cuts down on condensation forming on the bikes. Had Jay Leno help me put them in, lol.
 
Gotta get out there this morning to put it back together so I can actually take a ride for a change
 
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f216/rashapir/IMG_0174_zpsdsbnyygm.jpg

[Beemer]

Does work ever stop for anyone ... other than the filthy rich?

[rick]

Does work ever stop for anyone ... other than the filthy rich?

I'm hoping to retire come next July (finances allowing of course as I'm not even moderately dirty rich) - then I can really get to work on this hotel of a house! 

[twf]

Today I took set of stock forks apart to install R6 cartridges and found worn out bushings. After checking everything I found upper bushings have to much play for my taste. They are narrow to begin and to much clearance between them and fork tube.
At beginning of the travel inner tube moves noticeable. At full compression it is not that noticeable because bushings are far apart. I looked inside lower tube and there is visible wear from bushing near full extension.

[pattonme]

I'll just say here that I will NOT press fit a ring and then re-bore for tighter tolerances... The SV Gen2 upper bushing is 3mm taller. I could see getting away with maybe 2mm. The pinched ID of the bushings seems to be the same for both so perhaps the FZ just needs a shim.

[etorty]

Today I took set of stock forks apart to install R6 cartridges and found worn out bushings. After checking everything I found upper bushings have to much play for my taste. They are narrow to begin and to much clearance between them and fork tube. At beginning of the travel inner tube moves noticeable. At full compression it is not that noticeable because bushings are far apart. I looked inside lower tube and there is visible wear from bushing near full extension.

When I've changed the bushings, in the spring, I've found that also the upper bushing of the AllBalls kit have some little clearance, about the same of the OE bushing. So I've assumed that was normal... (so... seriously it was?). 
One question a little OffTopic: which m.y. of R6 have the cartridges compatibles with the 07's forks?
I'm interested........ 

[twf]

I used 06/07 ones. They are not compatible, I made them work.
 

 

[jmacas87]

I used 06/07 ones. They are not compatible, I made them work. 

 
 
And I'm sure we would all love to hear how you did it
 
r6s components?

[twf]

R6 not S.
Machined caps to fit stock forks and made new cartridge tube and compression valve holder. One leg is rebound adjustable and other compression.
Same set up as my gsxr cartridges.

[twf]

To stay on subject this forks have 2500 miles and bushings were pretty worn out, as bad as those posted by Matt in first post.

[twotone]

To stay on subject this forks have 2500 miles and bushings were pretty worn out, as bad as those posted by Matt in first post.

 
Ok, so does that verify that OEM stuff is poorly coated, and perhaps the quality after market stuff should be used ASAP?
 
Btw, nice work on the adapted R6 carts TWF?
Can I ask, would the internal tuning be similar to Traxxion?
 
 

[twf]

Not sure it verify anything other than I did not like clearance between tube and upper bushing.
It is similar to ak how adjusters work, everything else is different.