twotone Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 @twotone did I hear you volunteer to be the first over-seas (well first anywhere really) guinea pig for a kit install? Lol You read something into it But I do like getting Into the technical stuff On my bikes' I could try something over the next few weeks, but it would have to be a DFF ( but not absolutely) Letme know what you have in mind I would have to have the doner cartidge in Hand first Happy to test afterwards ( great test roads locally that challenges suspensions :-) ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Soo, finally, a test ride. And a caveat - nothing over 45 mph yet OK, keep in mind, I have 9.8cSt fluid in the compression side (imo, this was a worthwhile experiment) and close to the specified 16.5 in the R side. I set the screws - just by static feel - full out (4 turns) on the C side and 2.5 turns out on the R side. And that for me was a pretty good guess. I had a wrench with me but didn't even bother. Preload is as delivered, full soft. I have 30 mm of static sag w/o me on the bike and saw about 60mm max compression after about 15 miles of city bumps and bruises with some purposefully hard/abrupt front (is there any other kind?) braking. I even took aim at recessed (probably an inch down from the street) manhole cover at 45 mph that most sane people would evade. 1st - sloppy brake dive is now gone. This will allow a lot harder use of the front brakes w/o as much lift in the back - always a good thing with a short wheelbase. 2nd - rebound is just sooo much better it's comical. Overall ride quality is much improved. Even with the Ohlins set really soft, the front and back are now much better balanced. 3rd - ahh, the compression. Fearing the worst after all the conversations, I paid most attention here. Well, i did feel some harsh edges here and there, but it was still far, far better than OE. Even diving into that manhole cover was not all that bad. It was well controlled and nowhere near as harsh as my pre-manhole cover grimace warranted I guess it would be nice if there was enough adjustment range to make the C side too soft (not that I'd like it back to OE) but for now, it's OK. After all, this is the 1st time in 44 years of riding I've had any adjustment on the compression - so if it's good set at max soft, I don't care. I suspect, that as the speeds increase, the frost heaves will be felt a tad more. Still plenty of riding season left here to find that out where that stacks up in comparo to OE. So stay tuned. But so far, I'd say it was worth the 9 or so hours of installation (including 1 hour lost putting that dang front fender back on) and along with the price of entry which, considering the deal we got back in June was frankly too good to pass up. My next move is to coerce my buddy ( who ran a TZ125 in WERA a while back) out of his shiny new C7 Vette and take the FZ for a ride. in the last coupe years, thru other friend's, he's ridden the very best hardware out there. Really will be interesting to hear his opinion. So, for now, I'm leaving it be and pretty content at that. Maybe come winter, if i get a bug under my tail to be out in a cold garage, and Mr. Pattonme is still feeling generous with his expertise and willing to do more experimenting with this set-up, I'll open it back up and violate another company's warranty in the quest for plush as well as control. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twotone Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 You didn't say how much air gap you went with If I understand you correctly you're only using 60mm of 130 of travel? This may account for some harshness? So maybe adjust air gap, And preload, target 30-33% of travel rider sag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted September 19, 2015 Author Share Posted September 19, 2015 Thanks for the review @rick. I'm going to re-run some simulations on the Andreani after I have it modeled and I should be able to get you that plushness with a few shim changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 I set the air gap at the recommended 120mm. This was with all of the spacers and spring removed and with the damper rod also all the way down. i didn't measure sag with me on the bike. But add another 5mm or so with the extra weight and then call it 35mm. I think if you go back and reread Pattonme's original teardown of this cartridge, you'll see he's measured more like 120 mm of potential travel instead of the OE's 130. So i'm in that 30% ballpark. The spring that came with this kit was labelled 7.8. If that can be believed as accurate, it's a bit stiffer than the OE spring. As I'm about 135 lbs dripping, what deficits in max travel might be the spring's doing. Probably nothing I can do to change that. But yeah, I can increase the air gap by maybe 5mm or so, that might help. I'd rather the front not slam the bumpers (a fat O-ring) ever if given the choice. I did some reasonably hard braking today, but nothing on the order of a panic stop - and it was all on smooth ground. I do most of my riding on 2ndary roads, some of which are pretty crappy/choppy. So the real test will be at ~ 60 mph on 30 miles of 2ndary road I've been using to test/compare the ohlins set-up that's chock full of frost heaves. Before the ohlins, it was just brutal - couldn't wait to get off of that road. After taking 5mm of preload and 4 clicks of rebound from the recommended start position of the new shock, the back is now pretty good. It won't take all 30 miles to pass verdict on the front 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted September 19, 2015 Author Share Posted September 19, 2015 7.8N/mm == 0.8kg/mm. If you're going to change air, make it at least 130. I'd be interested in the amount of realized fork travel after your very best, graduated and maximum effort stop from ~40mph. (please don't crash by grabbing the brake - remember squeeeeeeeezzzzzzzeeeeeee, steadily harder until at the last moment you're about to pick the rear tire up) You ought to see 80-100mm. But remember @twotone, compression damping resists bottoming so this may be a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twotone Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Yes got yah, 120 travel not oem travel And yes you're right comp has influence on travel And in this case the rider / spring combo seems ok in the numbers. Just seems between 35mm rider sag and 60mm max ie 25mm movement to be too little So far, look forward to further outcomes. Thanks for posting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twotone Posted September 19, 2015 Share Posted September 19, 2015 Just a side note, this may have been done, but anyway air gap from top of tube plus cap depth Eg: 130 + 30 Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted September 20, 2015 Author Share Posted September 20, 2015 actually, just measure from top of tube. I've never seen it specified otherwise. Some caps are mostly hollow, true, but as you're screwing the cap on, any built up pressure will escape until the O-ring has a chance to seat in the last 5mm or so. I've never heard of anybody making it an issue. But if it floats your boat, by all means do as you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twotone Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Pattonme, Just out of interest how do the oem caps compare with the Andreani's, displacement wise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 My Futura has 0.9 springs. It weighs 130 lbs more and that's one big lump of a V twin. Not much wonder this is behaving a bit stiff. In my mind's eye, I'd say the new caps are similar to the old in depth. And that o-ring is probably more like 2.5 or maybe 3 mm. I should be able to get out of town for a better feel of what's goin on later today. I'll get a cable tie on the stanchion so I don't have to depend on the tube getting wiped clean. I might even be able to get a bounce on the front and reach down there to reset the tie from the seat. With the reduced dive, at least i won't have to worry about the rear wheel hoisting. My Aprilia (not as short as the FZ, but pretty dang so for a 530 lb bike) is set up so soft, I've actually gotten the back end a bit squirrelly when my brain was in too big a hurry to make my hand do that proper logarithmic squeeze. That's excitement I can live w/o! BTW, my having a seat on the bike really never pushed the front down from static before either. Everyone talks about how rear biased the weight is. Seems that's true judging by this. I did the air gap measure from the top of the tube. That's how my priller's service manual specifies it for the Showa's as well. I used a home made version of the commercial syringe/tube tools out there to suck the fluid down to the right level. Pattonme, just out of curiosity, when you do these simulations, does it assume there are 2 valves restricting flow in each direction or are you looking at one leg? Cause in this case, even though the rebound side probably contributes some to the compression valving, both sides have to be averaged in. That might be why Andreani chose to make the flow in either direction so restricted. As a 1st run, I'm still reasonably pleased. After all the conversations of how insufficient the flow capabilities of that compression valve, I had images in my head of it being just horrid, maybe even unstable - it was far from that. Even banging down (and then up again) into that dropped manhole cover at 45 mph was pretty dang impressive - and that approaches your worst case scenario - that 1" sharp rise at 60+ mph. I don't go 80 much, so ---- this is fun, later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted September 20, 2015 Author Share Posted September 20, 2015 The simulation is per valve (or base+mid) in each direction separately. To analyze it I'll have to 'zero' the base valve basically. We'll see how that works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Just got back from a nice 95 mile ride. The roads were pretty empty as everyone must have been watching the WWE, erm, pro-footbal My initial impression stays pretty much intact. The suspension is now so much better controlled it's comical. I had about 10 miles of freeway to get to my frost-heave riddled road. The bike now rolls thru expansion joints and frost heaves instead of bounding over them like a bucking bronc . At the risk of sounding a bit high, I'm noticing getting kicked in the arse again, so I'm gonna take another click out of the Ohlins rebound. That'll put me at 20. I ran into the brakes pretty hard, 3 separate times. Not exactly panic stops, like my life depended on not hitting something, but pretty darn hard, just shy of the tire howling and hard enough that the back was coming well up . Combine that with some pretty ugly patches here and there and I managed to use up 80mm of total travel. Maybe if i hit a hole really hard i might compress the forks more, but i suspect what i did today will be pretty representative of any ride I take. So i guess it could be softer on compression, but I'm pretty content as is for now. Clearly, this set-up works better in real life than on paper. The only owner's review that i've read where they weren't happy was the FZ09 guy who dumped the ohlins fluid on the C side and went to a lighter fluid. HE was happy after that. That's where I stole the idea from in the 1st place. I'd suggest that anyone doing this kit should do this as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twotone Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 That's good you're happy with it Was there any point in the 95 miles the handle bars jumped in your hands as the suspension reached the 80mm limit? From your previous post it works out to 40-45mm useable travel, I know it's academic but it would be nice to gain more, and since you're 40 mm off the bottom, the air gap may be your next adjustment Some maths combined with your make shift syringe / with tube, take out 10mm at a time And see what happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted September 20, 2015 Share Posted September 20, 2015 Ahh, if only there was a drain plug. I get projects at work like that. It takes a couple of sentences to make the request and then comes the toe-tapping as it sometimes takes weeks to complete. If only this could be done w/o disassembling the entire front end. But yeah, making the air gap 130 mm might soften things nicely. I might try backing the rebound 1/4 turn as well - that one is easy. Before i did this, it felt like the throttle tube was way too big for the bar's diameter. Even though it's not really loose, it sorta felt that way with all of the pounding my hands took. There were times when bumps would cause me to accidentally cause me to turn the throttle one way or another giving myself a bit of whiplash, doh!. . That sensation is all but gone. This is actually a dangerous time of year to be going fast out in the country . It's only a couple weeks from peak, crazy-deer season (saw one dead bamby today) when the deer (f-ing everywhere) can't make up their mind as to whether they want to get laid or commit suicided by jumping in front of a moving vehicle. (Pennsylvania is now [HASH]2 in the country for deer/vehicle accident odds) So it's best to keep an eye on the road out ahead and not what the front wheel might impact. Today, I found myself able to scan well ahead more than i had on this bike and just assumed the suspension would deal with what the DOT forgot to fix. That said, i did hit one very large bump today at about 60 mph (dunno if it was a patch or just a big frost heave as i never saw it) that would have launched me clean out of the seat before all these changes. It was a bit harsh, but my arse never left the seat and it didn't induce any throttle chop (up or down). It's nice to keep the hands/death grip relaxed. I've had surgery on both hands and still have one finger that's lost some feeling from a damaged nerve( so much for that surgery) Sometimes throwing money at a problem is a good thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted September 20, 2015 Author Share Posted September 20, 2015 this isn't air-spring territory @twotone. Air spring only comes in at the end of travel and Rick's got a mile yet to go. This is compression damping - too progressive - the orifice size and shim stack when I first took them apart showed that. But @rick is happy with the significant improvement so we should leave him alone to enjoy the fruits of his labor... Only Rossi is allowed to play mind games on his opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twotone Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 this isn't air-spring territory @twotone. Air spring only comes in at the end of travel and Rick's got a mile yet to go. This is compression damping - too progressive - the orifice size and shim stack when I first took them apart showed that. But @rick is happy with the significant improvement so we should leave him alone to enjoy the fruits of his labor... Only Rossi is allowed to play mind games on his opposition. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is air spring, just good get more travel and have a little in reserve for the real woopsies I recently did a bike with USD forks with 140mm travel and set the air gap to 140mm under the adjustable cap, and got 120 mm total, test riding a bomb shelled road and extreme braking, and just added 10mm fliud to only to see it getting harsher at the bottom end and decrease usable travel by 5mm. This with a progressive shim stack. Pattonme, it would be interesting to see your solution to the Andreani's in practice, ie a better comp setup. I would just be curious to see what would be achieved with air gap and preload first as it is a little easier And you can always go back without too much trouble. Rick, great feed back, and benefits all concerned, but as time is a premium, no point in messing with a good result? And if your not feeling harshness makes me think that the shim stack is doing the job. Anyway it would be good to see your friends feed back for your own satisfaction. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 heehee, my buddy's wife dragged him to something called a flax scutching festival yesterday. time to get him out of that beautiful Corvette and back on 2 wheels to get his take on this thing. His immediate comparison, a 2009 KTM Duke - this was before they cheapened the suspension bits so he has fully adjustable everything WP. I'll see how my time is going for getting back in to to do some changes, but we're running out of season here (I just don't enjoy riding in the cold anymore) and the 13 year Aprilia is in need of some attention before both bikes get new fluids and put to bed for the winter. But yeah, I'm sure there's room for some improvement with some experimental valving. I suspect the front can be made better to the point that the base Ohlins shock will show some weakness. Right now, i kinda wish I had height adjustment - I'd raise the back 6 or 10mm to sharpen up the steering. On it goes, lol. But as is right now, beginner's bike or not, this is how this bike should have been sold in the 1st place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtwin Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Hi Rick and Pattonme I've been riding on the Andreanis a lot...3000 klm. I am pleased with front Andreani and rear (Ohlins)....in fact I have not adjusted them since my last descriptive posting in this thread. However I have re-positioned the footrests and fitted Kawa z750 bars....lower...further forward, but same width, plus Brembo front pads. The Footrests are 30 mm further back. This together with the bars has also has a very positive effect on the ride. A bonus is that on 200 mile (300kms) journeys my rear-end is free from pain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Good to hear. It's a lot of work not to have good results. With my only getting 80mm travel, I'd like see an ability to compress another 20. Probably doesn't matter 99% of the time, but hitting a big bump while hard on the brakes might result in the wheel taking the big hit instead of the suspension, So even though I was pretty darn pleased with my 1st 125 or so miles, come next spring, I'll be giving serious consideration to utilizing some Pattonme magic to make that valve ( or a Pattonme special) flow a bit freer so that the adjuster can actually, well, adjust. Meanwhile, I've backed the rebound side 1/4 turn for my next ride, mostly just cause i can, but also to see if that's better or not The one downside of having a nice relaxed upright riding position is that more weight is placed on ones butt. The seat Concepts seat thing + another inch of foam to fill in the dished out area they think necessary for comfort, and my tush is far happier than with the OE. For those who want to see what a great seat looks like, seek out a pict of my Futura - the bike with a stupid name and one of the most universally loved saddles ever put on a motorcycle. Maybe some day I'll change the bars. But for now, I'm done wrenching on this bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregjet Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 I know this is counter-intuitive but softer seats are not necessarily more comfortable for long duration. Your body is designed to sit on the ischial tuberosities ( sit bones) not the soft bits. If you use soft seats that wrap around you butt and lower legs it starts to put pressure on blood vessels and nerves that it ain't supposed to. That's the burning bum effect. Late model BMW's suffer from it . My F800R had a seat that I could stand for only about 70km before I was standing up to ride. hink bicycle seats. You can sit on a proper one for a very long time without your rear going numb and relative to motorcycle seats they are quite hard. Basically less is more so long as properly shaped. What a seat needs it to put the body load on these bones and motorcycle riding position makes that difficult. It is also why changing bars and footpeg position can have a sudden effect on the comfort of you seat that felt fine before. Go forth and modify my son...go forth and modify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 The foam in that Seat Concepts seat is quite firm. And had they not dished out a hole such that the edges of the bowl put pressure on the backs of my legs, it would have been perfect. The foam I added was the firmest upholstery foam I could find. Have a look at what I compare all motorcycle saddles to http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Aprilia/aprilia_RST_1000%2001.htm The foam in that seat is as perfect as the day it was new in 2002. The seat assembly is huge. It includes that plastic just behind/below the tank and extends back to the hand rails. The pillion as well the panniers when on are well back of the rear axle. Can you say wheelie prone? Not the best place for weight, but amazingly, for the most part, it doesn't effect handling. I go from one bike to the other and say to myself - and now for something completely different, lol. It's a lot easier going from big to small obviously. But it only takes my brain a few blocks for muscle memory to take hold and the strange to go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigtwin Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Quite right Gregjet.......I had more pain with the standard seats. I then changed to the much much firmer Yamaha replacement MT-07 'Comfort' seat which although a big improvement. It was the repositioned pegs and bars really made the difference. I travel with a hefty rucksack which adds pressure to my rear end but last week's UK trip showed that the new combination of seat and riding position stopped all aches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robsoup Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Brilliant thread guys - really really informative read! I was going to purchase the Ohlins+Andreani Advanced kit (1), but after reading this I wasn't so sure, as if I am going to go as far as installing a proper cartridge kit, I'd want one with proper adjustment (as per the rear). So then that got me thinking that perhaps I should just get the basic kit (2) instead for the time being (to stop the diving under braking), then if I want to upgrade that later, I could... But then just today I read that Ohlins are bringing out a proper front cartridge kit (3 + 4). What do you make of that? All my riding is road based. I mainly want to get rid of the bouncy loose suspension, but I want to keep the comfort too. (1) https://www.omniaracing.net/en/andreani-kit-advanced-cartridge-shock-absorber-ohlins-for-yamaha-2014-p-20144.html (2) https://www.omniaracing.net/en/ohlins-basic-suspension-kit-shock-absorber-springs-fork-oil-for-yamaha-2014-p-20604.html (3) http://www.ohlins.com/product/nix-22/ (4) https://shop.partsworldshop.com/en/eur/A~OEFKS_204/0~0~Bike/%C3%96hlins-Cartridge-Kit-NIX-22-MT-07-2014-up-XSR-700-2016-up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattonme Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 I can't stop you from ordering from an overseas website that is violating their resell agreements. (are you in EU? in which case never mind) But you might want to check out http://fz07.org/thread/4282/holiday-andreani-fork-shock-special as I address most of the points. I've done I think a dozen of these for folks to date: http://fz07.org/thread/1909/fully-adjustable-cartridge-retrofit-forks The Nix-22 is last I checked vaporware. It's been "coming" for a while now... Though if it's anything like it's bigger brother the NIX-30 the materials will be a step above the Andreani. I think you might want to start a new thread on the NIX-22 system rather than continue here. Or segueway into this thread: http://fz07.org/thread/4396/suspension-upgrade-sound NIX-22 thread: http://fz07.org/thread/4415/ohlins-nix-22-system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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