[SOLVED] Low inconsistent idle

[kjata]

I know my bike has a odd idle the first 2-3 times I ride the bike to the store to then it never happens again unless I disconnect the battery...The idle will slowly die off(15-20secs)to the point of stalling then quickly rev back up...this is the computer relearning the idle...it has happened the last 4 weeks as I switch between my bikes swapping over my heat controller for heated jacket liner...The first ride the odd idle is hella noticeable, the 2-3 ride is half as noticeable then after that I really don't notice an odd idle...

 
 
That sounds like the same symptoms I am having but sometimes it will result in a stall. That hasn't been happening lately, but in the summer sometimes it was really bad.
 
Really bad, I couldn't even come to a stop without expecting a stall. It seems that if I kinda give it a bit of whisky throttle it'll remain constant and I won't have that sub 1k rpms dip. At this point the bike is more or less functioning but is more of an annoyance.
 
Someone on reddit suggested that he experienced a similar symptom and he simply replaced the battery. I shrugged off that as a solution because I know my bike has a lot more going on. I have had fuses replaced (the one that controls turning signals and horn), I have a bunch of aftermarket stuff on it.
 
 

[Guest Ralph]

Is the switch on the clutch lever connected if not connect it.

[rick]

The dealer that did all this work originally ( I can't even tell you where to find a dyno around here) should be able to hook the bike up to the factory diagnostic tool. This will yield far more info than what will come up on the dash. All of the trouble-shooting in the service manual is based on code readouts from that tool.
 
You said they reflashed the ECU and put a custom map in the PCV. Do you know why did they reflashed the ecu and do you know if they changed the OE map or just reinstalled it? If the have the ability to modify the OE map, then there's really no need for the PCV.
 
As for the battery, check the standing voltage. It should be 12.7-12.8 vDC. While running, at 4k RPM the charge voltage should be 14-14.5V. If you have a higher charge voltage, that can cause all sorts of problems - 16V will start to pop lights. If the charge voltage is too low, the battery will (slowly?) die and we've seen that a weak battery can also cause it's own issues.
 
Take it back to the guys who did all of this work - they owe you at least the time hooked up to their diagnostic computer .

[kjata]

The dealer that did all this work originally ( I can't even tell you where to find a dyno around here) should be able to hook the bike up to the factory diagnostic tool. This will yield far more info than what will come up on the dash. All of the trouble-shooting in the service manual is based on code readouts from that tool.  
You said they reflashed the ECU and put a custom map in the PCV. Do you know why did they reflashed the ecu and do you know if they changed the OE map or just reinstalled it? If the have the ability to modify the OE map, then there's really no need for the PCV.
 
As for the battery, check the standing voltage. It should be 12.7-12.8 vDC. While running, at 4k RPM the charge voltage should be 14-14.5V. If you have a higher charge voltage, that can cause all sorts of problems - 16V will start to pop lights. If the charge voltage is too low, the battery will (slowly?) die and we've seen that a weak battery can also cause it's own issues.
 
Take it back to the guys who did all of this work - they owe you at least the time hooked up to their diagnostic computer .

Here's the problem with the dealer, they said the diagnostic computer didn't give them any read outs. They said they hooked it up twice to it. I'm 50/50 on believing them if they actually did this. Remember, they couldn't figure out why the horn didn't work, where I simply looked underneath the bike and seen the wires cut in half by the fan.  
They only flashed the ECU once, and removed like the top speed limit and some other things. I believe they gave me a custom map in the PCV because I had the bike dyno'd.
 

[norcal616]

I know from experience if the tuner or owner trys to tune the "eco mode" range on our bikes, other ppl can confirm this, it will make the bike run funky...The best solution is to have the PCV ignore the "eco mode" range and only tune outside the "eco mode" range...believe it or not "eco mode" tunes itself, that's how I look at it...Power Commander recommend a " blanket coverage" of eco mode range with a fuel change of +8 should suffice...

[rick]

Was sorta under the impression that eco mode was just an indication that the throttle wasn't open very far or some combination of throttle position, gear and RPM..
 
Can understand that the map is different when that's lit vs. load demand for fuel. There is likely a learned function to the map that is the Long Term Fuel Trim, but that doesn't explain why the idle is hunting.
 
Sadly, a shop that misses obviously damaged wires is why I resist taking my bikes to any shop.
 
But if there truly are no codes, and it behaves the same w/o the PCV hooked up, then I'm going back to an air leak somewhere - either intake manifold (hole in a hose or a plug missing?) or exhaust at the head.
 
 
 
 

[norcal616]

Eco mode is the closed loop fueling... There also is an o2 optimizer device that comes with the PVC unit if you do not have one or the shop never installed it...I would also make sure the TPS is still in original location...

[rick]

Yeah, that makes sense. It's also where the throttle is quite abrupt - can you say lean?
 
My buddy's SuperDukeR now has a plug-in dongle that fools the ecu into thinking it's always in open loop. What little abrupt fueling the thing had OE is now completely gone.
 
But a non-zeroed TPS could sure cause the idle speed to be wrong - and then the ECU tries to fix it via the IAC. Back and forth, might even result in the idle going up and down as the 2 systems fight for control. And it might not kick up a code.
 
looks like from the manual that if the TPS is moved or replaced, it must see the diagnostic tool to reset. Doesn't bode well for us DIYers, unless there's a known voltage output when the throttles are closed that someone goes to the trouble of sussing out .

[kjata]

Eco mode is the closed loop fueling... There also is an o2 optimizer device that comes with the PVC unit if you do not have one or the shop never installed it...I would also make sure the TPS is still in original location...

Yup that's all installed. They put the little box like right behind the battery.  

[norcal616]

Yes Rick...I'm also thinking the TPS got unbolted and moved around the time the dealership was somehow raising the idle without going thru ECU...or the TPS is defective...

[kjata]

Well I'm beginning to run out of ideas here. I've been considering getting in touch with 2wheels dyno works to inquire about an ECU reflash. But before I go and dump all that money into that, I'm wondering if the ECU could potentially be the issue. What might you guys recommend?
 
If I removed the power commander just a couple of weeks ago, and the problem was still present, and I'm thinking that it's safe to say that the PCV wasn't the problem. Although, with it removed, I remembered remarking to my friend that I noticed the idle jolts to be a little bit more violent.
 
 

[rick]

Well, we're all just guessing of course. But I think norcal's last suggestion should be looked at. Have a close look at the mounting screws for the TPS for any evidence that the unit hasten turned or even just shiny marks on the bolts suggesting a tool has been used on them. If the TPS is not properly "zeroed" (meaning it's telling the ECU that the throttle is not closed when it actually is) you can have all sorts of stuff happen - especially at idle. http://wiki.seloc.org/a/Throttle_Position_Sensor
 
The TPS on this bike cannot be adjusted properly w/o the Yamaha diagnostic tool, so you could replace it yourself, but never get it adjusted right. I believe it's on the right end of the throttle body unit.
There's a specified ohm range from closed to open to check that it's working, but you should not even loosen the screws that keep it from rotating. If the thing is currently loose somehow, that would be a problem that needs attention
 
None of the mods you did would require the TPS to be moved from OE.
 
You can check for vac leaks with the aid of a small butane soldering pen. Open the gas and just point it at the throttle bodies where they bolt to the motor, any hoses hooked into intake vac and the ISC (aka IAC valve). Buane sucked into the motor will change the idle
 
 
 
 

[kjata]

Well, we're all just guessing of course. But I think norcal's last suggestion should be looked at. Have a close look at the mounting screws for the TPS for any evidence that the unit hasten turned or even just shiny marks on the bolts suggesting a tool has been used on them. If the TPS is not properly "zeroed" (meaning it's telling the ECU that the throttle is not closed when it actually is) you can have all sorts of stuff happen - especially at idle. http://wiki.seloc.org/a/Throttle_Position_Sensor  
The TPS on this bike cannot be adjusted properly w/o the Yamaha diagnostic tool, so you could replace it yourself, but never get it adjusted right. I believe it's on the right end of the throttle body unit.
There's a specified ohm range from closed to open to check that it's working, but you should not even loosen the screws that keep it from rotating. If the thing is currently loose somehow, that would be a problem that needs attention
 
None of the mods you did would require the TPS to be moved from OE.
 
You can check for vac leaks with the aid of a small butane soldering pen. Open the gas and just point it at the throttle bodies where they bolt to the motor, any hoses hooked into intake vac and the ISC (aka IAC valve). Buane sucked into the motor will change the idle
 
 
 

 
 
Just for the sake of conversation, if the TPS WASN'T played with, could it have been messed with because of the shortage from when the fuses were blown? If this ain't the problem, at this point I couldn't fathom what would be.
 
Like today I took it out. No problems until I got off the high way and started to slow down. Noticed it hunting a bit, blipped the throttle to like 5k rpms like 2 or 3 times and it was normal for the rest of the ride back.

[hordboy]

These bikes have idle problems here and there, mine included. I've worked on a lot of Ducatis over the years, (unfortunately, heh) so I have developed some workarounds to issues involving idle and the TPS/IAC/etc. When my FZ displayed an erratic idle, sometimes stalling at stops, etc, I simply raised the "hard" idle a bit with the adjustment screw and then reset the TPS to it's baseline voltage. IIRC the voltage before I monkeyed with it was .63v, so that's what I set it back to. (The book says TPS voltage should be at .63-.73v at idle.) Do this while the bike is hot and idling normally so that your settings are done at a good baseline. Now my bike idles fine. I'm not advocating everybody go out and do this, but here's the info anyway.
 
I do recall a weird case years ago with a bike not idling properly. EVERYTHING checked out ok. (it was a Duc) Turns out the owner had shorted something at one point and blown fuses. Well, it also blew the sensor ground to the ECU (which all the sensors are tied into for consistency) which caused mayhem. The ECU was replaced and then all was well. I hope this is not the OP's problem...

[kjata]

These bikes have idle problems here and there, mine included. I've worked on a lot of Ducatis over the years, (unfortunately, heh) so I have developed some workarounds to issues involving idle and the TPS/IAC/etc. When my FZ displayed an erratic idle, sometimes stalling at stops, etc, I simply raised the "hard" idle a bit with the adjustment screw and then reset the TPS to it's baseline voltage. IIRC the voltage before I monkeyed with it was .63v, so that's what I set it back to. (The book says TPS voltage should be at .63-.73v at idle.) Do this while the bike is hot and idling normally so that your settings are done at a good baseline. Now my bike idles fine. I'm not advocating everybody go out and do this, but here's the info anyway. 
I do recall a weird case years ago with a bike not idling properly. EVERYTHING checked out ok. (it was a Duc) Turns out the owner had shorted something at one point and blown fuses. Well, it also blew the sensor ground to the ECU (which all the sensors are tied into for consistency) which caused mayhem. The ECU was replaced and then all was well. I hope this is not the OP's problem...

 
 
 
Well how would I go about figuring out if that did happen because I did blow some fuses and had issues from there on.

[rick]

Didn't someone actually hook the battery up backwards and just blow fuses w/o the ecu getting harmed? If the ecu can survive this, I losing one of the 2ndary fuses won't hurt the ECU.
 
I'm thinking you should bite the bullet, remove the PCV, and then send the ecu to the guys here who do this for a living. If the ecu is faulty, they'll see it. If it's not, you'll have a proper map for the pipe you've installed w/o the add-on bandaid that is the PCV.
 
Don't recall seeing any voltage numbers for the ecu in my service manual - only how to adjust using the Yamaha diagnostic tool and those numbers were not voltages.
 
Raising the idle mechanically takes the IAC out of the equation. These FI systems are not designed to run that way - but OK fine. It's your bike. Not sure why you would then reset the TPS to zero as the throttle plates are no longer closed. That will just throw the fueling off across the entire range.
 
There are ohm numbers in the service manual to check that TPS. It has one resistance when the throttle is closed and another when it's wfo. You just need to remove the plug to check this. If it's been misadjusted, those numbers will tell you it's not faulty, but won't help fix this. .
 
Kjata, OK, what exactly do you mean by hunting? Cause if you have the throttle near closed or actually closed at say 40 mph in 4th or 5th gear, the throttle will be real touchy/abrupt as you go from closed to cracked open. This is a side effect of the OE fueling when the throttle is closed. They've set it up so there's little to no fuel resulting in the strong engine brake feel and great fuel economy. Adding an open pipe just makes it leaner. It can be a pita sometimes, but it's "normal" - before anyone has messed with the mapping.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[kjata]

Sorry maybe hunting wasn't the best choice of words, I meant it'll dip in rpms but shoot back up to about 1.5k as demonstrated in the videos I attached earlier in thread.

[Guest ChicagoAJ]

The dealer that did all this work originally ( I can't even tell you where to find a dyno around here) should be able to hook the bike up to the factory diagnostic tool. This will yield far more info than what will come up on the dash. All of the trouble-shooting in the service manual is based on code readouts from that tool.  
You said they reflashed the ECU and put a custom map in the PCV. Do you know why did they reflashed the ecu and do you know if they changed the OE map or just reinstalled it? If the have the ability to modify the OE map, then there's really no need for the PCV.
 
As for the battery, check the standing voltage. It should be 12.7-12.8 vDC. While running, at 4k RPM the charge voltage should be 14-14.5V. If you have a higher charge voltage, that can cause all sorts of problems - 16V will start to pop lights. If the charge voltage is too low, the battery will (slowly?) die and we've seen that a weak battery can also cause it's own issues.
 
Take it back to the guys who did all of this work - they owe you at least the time hooked up to their diagnostic computer .

Here's the problem with the dealer, they said the diagnostic computer didn't give them any read outs. They said they hooked it up twice to it. I'm 50/50 on believing them if they actually did this. Remember, they couldn't figure out why the horn didn't work, where I simply looked underneath the bike and seen the wires cut in half by the fan.  
They only flashed the ECU once, and removed like the top speed limit and some other things. I believe they gave me a custom map in the PCV because I had the bike dyno'd.

The FZ-07 doesn't have a governor for top speed. It's limited by horsepower and drag. If you don't know what settings they changed with the flash then who knows what the problem could be. Until you have that information you can search high and low and never find any reason why you're having the problems you're having. Do you know if the ECU was flashed at all in addition to the PCV? It very well could have been. Whoever buys my FZ-07 from the dealer I traded it in to is getting a free flash. If they hook up a PCV too they're just wasting their money. 

[hordboy]

Not sure if this is directed at me, but bumping the idle stop screw does not take the IAC out of the equation.  The IAC is there to bump idle when the engine is cold, then it closes and you are on the idle screw.  So adjusting the screw increases the "baseline" idle.  The TPS must be adjusted back to "zero" so the ECU knows where closed throttle is.  Otherwise it throws off the fueling.  (and spark timing)  In theory you could also turn out the air bleeds a bit more to bump the idle, but I didn't mess with that. 
 
Page 2-5 of the service manual, TPS voltage at idle .63-.73v.
 

 
Raising the idle mechanically takes the IAC out of the equation. These FI systems are not designed to run that way - but OK fine. It's your bike. Not sure why you would then reset the TPS to zero as the throttle plates are no longer closed. That will just throw the fueling off across the entire range.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

[kjata]

Here's the problem with the dealer, they said the diagnostic computer didn't give them any read outs. They said they hooked it up twice to it. I'm 50/50 on believing them if they actually did this. Remember, they couldn't figure out why the horn didn't work, where I simply looked underneath the bike and seen the wires cut in half by the fan.  
They only flashed the ECU once, and removed like the top speed limit and some other things. I believe they gave me a custom map in the PCV because I had the bike dyno'd.

The FZ-07 doesn't have a governor for top speed. It's limited by horsepower and drag. If you don't know what settings they changed with the flash then who knows what the problem could be. Until you have that information you can search high and low and never find any reason why you're having the problems you're having. Do you know if the ECU was flashed at all in addition to the PCV? It very well could have been. Whoever buys my FZ-07 from the dealer I traded it in to is getting a free flash. If they hook up a PCV too they're just wasting their money. 

Yes, I have a receipt from them stating that they performed the ECU flash. I mean, I guess they could have charged me for it and didn't bother to do the flash but I couldn't really see that happening.  
When I drove it out of the dealership the bike was running fine. For about a month or so until I changed the tail tidy and had that electrical issue. Now, what would you recommend I do? I would like to keep the power commander in the bike, as removing it will be a head ache. Well, removing the actual PCV unit will be simple, as I have done before, but then I would have to also remove the O2 optimizer as well. Now I removed the PCV unit before and checked the bike's idle. It was still erratic at times BUT I also didn't undo the o2 optimizer that comes with the PCV so it could be that.
 
Could I mail the ECU to 2wheels and tell them to flash it around my PCV? I think they installed a "custom map" along inside the PCV so idk if that would be impossible to do. Or I could try to change the map inside the PCV with something general like.. Carbon Akra, baffle out, snorkel off map and have them flash around that.
 
Or maybe I could.. try to take it back to the knuckle head dealers and have them remove the PCV, and have them reflash?
 

[norcal616]

The o2 sensor only works during closed loop fueling range to provide feedback...The o2 optimization device is to help fool the o2 signal to run a tad richer during "eco mode" as Eco Mode was made to give best MPG by safely running leaner AFR numbers during its range of operation...we all know using an aftermarket exhaust tends to make a bike run a tad leaner than OEM...you can use the o2 optimization device without the PCV if you choose...
 
If they performed they actual ECU reflash why use a PCV to run a fuel map when the dyno information can be plugged into the ECU flashing software??
 
With out figuring out your idle issue it would be pointless to have 2wdw flash your ECU... Once 2wdw flashes your ECU you would need to remove it or set all the fuel / ignitiontables in the PCV to zero...
 
2wdw has about 6-7 flash tunes made up for different major exhaust choices and the akra carbon is one of them choices.. You can still use the PCV but would need to put bike back on dyno to tune to your locale but it would probably help like 2% on top of the 2wdw flash...
 
 
 
 
 

[rick]

 
If they performed they actual ECU reflash why use a PCV to run a fuel map when the dyno information can be plugged into the ECU flashing software??
 
 
 
 
 

Dang good question. That they have a dyno and hopefully the proper expertise to use that info properly, a custom reflash should take care of everything the PCV is trying to help with and then some.  
Not having removed that O2 sensor optimizer thing, you still don't know if it's misbehaving. 
 
Do you remember which fuses blew when you did the tail tidy. Were they just 2ndary fuses for, say, turn signals or brake lights and not the 30A main?  I'm not suggesting you ride the bike w/o a tail/brake light, but at this point, I'm kinda curious to see if your wonky idle goes away with those those fuses pulled. Wouldn't be able to explain it if that was the case, but it would be time to look carefully at that harness 
 
 
 

[Guest ChicagoAJ]

I would take out the PCV and 02 optimizer and sell those things. Use the cash to send the ECU to 2WDW and get a flash you KNOW is good for the bike. If those guys at the other shop flashed the ECU and ran a PCV and 02 optimizer it sounds like they were just after a quick buck from someone who doesn't know much about bikes.
 
Guaranteed the flash from 2WDW is more comprehensive than the PCV and 02 optimizer combined.

[kjata]

If they performed they actual ECU reflash why use a PCV to run a fuel map when the dyno information can be plugged into the ECU flashing software??  
 
 
 
 

Dang good question. That they have a dyno and hopefully the proper expertise to use that info properly, a custom reflash should take care of everything the PCV is trying to help with and then some.  
Not having removed that O2 sensor optimizer thing, you still don't know if it's misbehaving. 
 
Do you remember which fuses blew when you did the tail tidy. Were they just 2ndary fuses for, say, turn signals or brake lights and not the 30A main?  I'm not suggesting you ride the bike w/o a tail/brake light, but at this point, I'm kinda curious to see if your wonky idle goes away with those those fuses pulled. Wouldn't be able to explain it if that was the case, but it would be time to look carefully at that harness 
 
 

 
 
It specifically was the fuse for the headlights and brake, but if you pop the fuse box open, you can see there's 3 red fuses (I think 15a) where the white lettering is almost rubbed off. They potentially are old or maybe they're printed without any paint. I think those 3 were swapped by my local guy. As far as any other fuses, im not sure

[rick]

That fuse for the headlights is 15A and should be blue. The red fuses are 10A. There should be 5 of them (including the ignition and FI fuses) between those 3 boxes. The fuse for the aux plug should be gray and the fuse that powers the clock (7.5A) will be brown. The main fuse will be a 30A and green. There's also a spare 30A one beside the starter solenoid.
 
Looks like there are 4 "spare fuses" that aren't specified by amperage in the owners manual.
 
you might want to have a look at P 7-32 in that manual and make sure the proper rated fuse is where it belongs.
 
probably won't change yer life any, but it's easy to check. You don't want a 15A fuse on a circuit that should only be protected by 10 or 7.5 amp fuses. Make sure all of those fuses is seated properly - they pull straight up. Those fuses are cheap - if you suspect the OEs got swapped with old ones, buy new.