csizzle84 Posted January 24, 2018 Author Share Posted January 24, 2018 -- Update -- So I'm getting everything situated in the garage here to pull the rear wheel... I grabbed my 27mm socket and put it on the axle nut just to confirm it's the right size. I think for a second, I wonder if I can loosen it by hand... Sure enough, it loosened by hand with light effort... Yep...OBVIOUSLY it was torqued to spec ALL ALONG and I broke the 76 ft/lbs. BAREHANDED...I'll have to dig deeper... Seriously though, I'm guessing the dealership had the responsibility of torquing that nut and they didn't bother breaking out the torque wrench...ugh, don't get me going on that...so many fails if true... Hopefully, I'll have some more updates later today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstertt Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Yeh, you would hope the dealer would have at least got the axle nut snugged up...don't even need a torque wrench to get it close...and safe. Maybe you ought to go around your bike and check out the rest of the 'important' fasteners. I once worked at a Triumph/Honda dealership (1970-71) and we had one mechanic who periodically let new bike 'make ready's' go out without oil in the engine...they came with a few ounces of what we called 'fish oil' in the sumps...surprising how long they would run on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 I think the bike comes with the front wheel off inside the crate. But I would have guessed the chain would be set and the rear axle would be torqued at the factory. Someone was asleep at the wheel for sure. Thankfully - you didn't have to crash to find out. You do owe that friend a drink for banging into you though. 😉 You'd still be riding with it stupid loose if not for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csizzle84 Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 Hey guys...so I got it up on the stand and took a look... I started by grabbing the wheel at 9 and 3 and checked for any play. I had to use a decent amount of strength, but there was a tiny amount -- just barely enough to feel and hear, but definitely there. The wheel rotated cleanly with no signs of being bent or obstructed, though... So instead of tearing everything apart, I decided to see just how far off the axle nut was... I set the caliper mounting bracket in its forward-most position, cleaned out the axle threads with WD-40 and gave it a go. Even taking into account how much I loosened it myself by hand earlier, I'd say it took ONE FULL ROTATION before the axle nut hit 76 ft/lbs. Yikes. With that, there's no longer any play in the wheel or the caliper mount. I'd say you guys absolutely called it early on... The hit simply prompted me to do a thorough inspection... which caused the mount to come into question... you guys theorized about the axle nut torque...the play in the wheel supported that theory... and as suspected, the axle nut was WAAYYYY off. Now it's tightened up and all symptoms alleviated. I'm feeling pretty confident it was this way all along. Honestly, I really don't have any reason to suspect it needs a tear-down at this point. I'm thinking I might just be keenly aware that I need to keep an eye on everything for a while and be hyper-sensitive to any signs of trouble -- noise, feel, chain/sprocket wear, etc. Big thanks to @rick and @markstertt. I really appreciate it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 On January 22, 2018 at 5:20 PM, mossrider said: I hate to be bearer of truth here but every single one of your bike's has that 'play' in the brake stay depicted in the video. Just because you cannot feel it with the limited torque your fingers are capable of exerting does not mean it isn't there because it still is. If you doubt this put the rear on a paddock stand, lock the rear brake via lever pressure, grab the wheel and give it a healthy rotational forward/backward twist. There it is. By design. This bIke has a non floating rear brake. There are many pros to this type of system. It is cheap, simple and reliable system used on many models for many years, both drum and disc setups. One of the downsides of this type of system however is brake hop or 'clatter'. Many of you have experienced this during hard braking over washboard or pot holed surfaces. It manifests itself as the loud metallic "CLACK, CLACK, CLACK" heard during a panic stop or wheel skid over very rough ground or when the rear wheel looses/regains traction. That sound is caused by the exact motion he is demonstrating in that video clip and no matter how much you over tighten the axle nut you can't stop it from happening since the forces acting on the system simply overpower the frictional forces on the 'axle stack' as others have mentioned. In actuality there is nothing affixed to the axle, everything just slides over it. If you doubt this pull the axle out of the bike and take a picture of every thing that remained attached to it. All those spacers, bearings, blah, blah will move on it. Bottom line: All of our bikes have that play. It is harmless (assuming nothing is broken, missing or installed wrong) I've attached an old diagram that kind of depicts what is going on. Ours is obviously a variation since our brake stay is a fork that straddles a lug on the back side of the swingarm but the function is the same. The forces are transmitted through the rear suspension, not directly into the chassis. No, it is not normal and that is not how it works. When axle is tightened properly axle, all spacers, all bearing inner races and caliper bracket are solid piece with swingarm. None of them is moving and should not move. That diagram shows braking force acting on suspension, which has nothing to do with caliper bracket rotating when it should not. Anti squat is not even needed on our bikes, shock and spring rates deal with it and front brakes are used mainly anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossrider Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 The point of the diagram was not to point out anything but that the backing plate is designed to lever on the swingarm in our bikes configuration and as such can be the source of some movement and noise . There certainly is 'wiggle' engineered into all those parts. I realize when properly assembled there won't be any 'felt' slop of the backing plate but it still moves minutely under brake force. Axle nut tension is ABSOLUTELY NOT what is intended to prevent the brake from spinning on the axle when applied. If you doubt this grind the locking yoke tabs off (Do not really do this but you get the point) and see what happens when you apply the brakes. It will spin the backing plate on the axle I don't care how tight the nut is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 There is no wiggle engineered in this part, it is engineered to be tight. If caliper bracket is not tight bearings are not tight either and will damaged them. Axle nut tension is absolutely there to keep caliper bracket tight. Tab is there to keep it from spinning when force is applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossrider Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Every single one of the parts that integrate with the rear axle has play in it or you'd never be able to line them all up simultaneously and get the axle though them on the bike. Only when you tighten the axle nut is a compressive force applied to the stack of parts that butt end to end over the axle and through the wheel hub that allows it to rotate. The fact that it appears to be one part is not accurate, it still exists but cannot be felt with your fingers. None of these parts are splined, pinned, geared or threaded to one another or the axle. The only physical no-slop 'connection' is where is the outer bearing races press fit into the part it is bearing. Tightening the axle stack allows a compressive force to be transmitted through the wheel hub without deforming the swingarm or binding the bearings, Altho it appears to lock the brake in place this is not it's primary purpose. That is what the tabs do as I stated above. You have misquoted, misunderstood or misrepresented several things I have tried to convey. Or maybe I didnt clearly articulate them, ive tried not to get carried away, my appologies. You introduced the seperate concept of anti squat. Thank you for this opportunity to argue a bit I feel better now. 😊 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Those diagrams remind me of the old days when back brakes were drums with shoes internal the wheels hub. You had to bolt up that "brake stop arm" before tightening the axle nut. if you didn't get them aligned 1st, there was a god chance you'd be loosening the axle nut and doing it over. so yeah, the caliper bracket wants to spin forward when you apply brakes. And yeah, the friction applied sideways to the plate isn't what supports the braking forces. Sorta like this diagrams, the bracket will only rotate so far as there is a stop on the swinger that the bracket hits. But there is enough squeeze on that bracket that it really shouldn't move by hand - or even move if you rolled the back backward and slammed on the back brake. His bracket was loose to the point that it could only be from a really loose axle nut. And that's what it turned out to be. And thank goodness for that axle nut that's cause some folk headaches by galling into the axle. A std. nut might have fallen off and that might have been unpleasant. Now, it's very possible for brake pads to move a wee bit inside a caliper. I back my bikes downhill into my garage. When I grab the front brake to stop them from rolling, there's usually an audible click as the pads, which are normally biased toward the front of the caliper, get pushed back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 I was typing (me type slow) when you just posted. i don't think we disagree on the important bits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossrider Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Right, I erroneously assumed in his first post that he had loosened/taken things apart when he noticed the play because he mentioned inspecting it after a minor bump (my bad). Then we got to arguing symantecs and crosstopicalloguinistics. 😕 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 You are talking about clearances between axle and bearings/spacers/bracket which again has nothing to do with issue here. Once axle is torqued all those parts act as one and none of them should move/rotate or have any play. If it does something is wrong, just like in this case axle was not torqued properly. I did not misrepresent anything, it is very simple. Bracket moving around like in video is ok according to you and I say it is not. I hope nobody rides their bike like that. How did I introduce anti squat? You posted diagram showing it. Purpose of mounting brake arm to frame is to remove braking force from compressing shock, that is called anti squat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossrider Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 My point was and is there is nothing wrong with his bike. He has since tightened his axle nut and is rocking it (I assume) as is. But you might be right, maybe we should all freak out, take our bikes to the recycler and have them crushed because something wiggled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 No need to crush it, just fix what needs to be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mossrider Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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