I have to tighten my chain AT LEAST every 500 miles >:(

[AlbatrossCafe]

Didn't know "automatic chain oiler" existed. Looks pretty cool. I HATE oiling my chain lol. I know it only takes a few minutes, but it seems like every time I have to do it, I it's the LAST thing I want to do.

2 hours ago, r1limited said:

You dont clean that chain much do you?  Going to stay out of this one, just sad.

I commute every day in it rain/shine. Never cleaned it. Last one got me to 20k miles so I didn't think about bothering to do it. Don't see anything sad about it.

 

I have a custom higher-rate Eibach spring in the rear with the OEM rear shock since I am about 240lbs with gear. Didn't know there were so many factors in chain tension. Thought it was as simple as measuring it on it's sidestand.

 

I'll count the links tonight and check sprocket condition and then get back to ya'll. Just called the installer and they don't keep info on what they installed, but they said to bring it by tomorrow and he'll take a look. Looks like I'll at least be ordering a new chain pretty soon here.

[rick]

I have an oiler on my Aprilia - when it comes time to sell it, that oiler will be the one thing that's not for sale.

 

One nice thing about an on-board oiler is that you can do this while the chain is warm and at slow speed while leaving a gas station. The warmth helps the lube distribute and the slow speed lets it settle in before it gets flung off. The other benefit is that it's oil, not sticky lube from a can. What little excess lube winds up being will flung off the chain,  taking dirt with it. I wipe my chains down 1x a year - right before the winter hibernation.

 

Considering the miles yer doing - in all manner of weather, it would be a good investment for you - especially if yer gonna pay someone labor for chains and sprockets.

[shinyribs]

Not trying to be stubborn here, but the teeth on your rear sprocket are hooked. This comes from the overtightening. Just saying this so you don't get too comfortable with the idea of saving the sprockets and end up disappointed later lol.

 

Props to you for asking for help when you didn't know what was going on, and for digging in to sort it out. We don't know until we learn, and this is why they put erasers on the other end of pencils.  Keep at it, man.

[rick]

Just had a look at mine on the sidestand. It's not topped out, but sure is close. Considering how light a spring that's on my Ohlins and that I have the preload collar backed a few turns from where Ohlins recommends, well, maybe the OE shock on the softest preload might not be topped out, but it's likely not an issue 

 

so NEVERMIND! 

[rick]

That chain's not any prettier in 4K here at home, but I can't see enough of the sprocket (and not the crud) to tell what those teeth look like 

 

 

[r1limited]

10 hours ago, r1limited said:

You dont clean that chain much do you?  Going to stay out of this one, just sad.

OK I lied, that chain is stretched to f**k, toss it, get a RK or DID.  If that chain stretched like that its either a POS Chinese version and it more than likely mucked your gears up.  @shinyribs is right that rear sprocket is hooked at least the teeth shown indicates that.  I would bet that rear is now oblong as well.  The slack showing is way out of adjustment and adjusting it is not rocket science.  2 Inches PERIOD is the slack needed, With a tape measure set at the end of the chain guide underneath the arm you should pull down until the TOP of the chain is at the 2 on the tape or ruler. 

 

I will say it one last time, a chain is a maintenance item, improperly inspected, lubed and adjusted will lead to this type of worse case scenario.  Let it be a lesson to all.

[YZEtc]

Here's my guess:

 

Your stiffer rear shock spring and spring preload setting is not allowing as much rear suspension "sag" while the bike is parked on the side stand.

This will change the slack specification a bit because the more you jack-up the rear suspension with more swingarm angle, the more slack there will be in the chain.

Conversely, the more weight put on the rear suspension and the less swingarm angle, the tighter the chain will become.

This is because the more the rear suspension compresses, the greater the distance between the front and rear sprockets.

That is the reason chain slack is required.

 

Odds are that you are adjusting the chain a bit too tightly without realizing it.

 

A good experiment would be to first adjust your chain to the spot you feel is correct (and be sure to do it the same way as usual: on the side stand), and then hoist the rear wheel off the ground by supporting the rear of the bike from overhead so you can take the weight off the rear suspension.

Then, remove the rear shock and front sprocket cover, move the rear wheel upward until the front sprocket shaft, swingarm pivot shaft, and rear wheel axle are all in a straight line, and see how much slack is in the chain at that point.

If you still have some slack, you are OK.

If the chain has no slack and is in fact under tension, you are not OK.

 

Then, swing the swingarm through it's range of normal rear suspension travel, observing the chain slack the whole time.

If the chain has tension on it at any point, you are not OK.

[rick]

1 hour ago, YZEtc said:

Here's my guess:

 

Your stiffer rear shock spring and spring preload setting is not allowing as much rear suspension "sag" while the bike is parked on the side stand.

This will change the slack specification a bit because the more you jack-up the rear suspension with more swingarm angle, the more slack there will be in the chain.

Conversely, the more weight put on the rear suspension and the less swingarm angle, the tighter the chain will become.

This is because the more the rear suspension compresses, the greater the distance between the front and rear sprockets.

That is the reason chain slack is required.

 

Odds are that you are adjusting the chain a bit too tightly without realizing it.

 

A good experiment would be to first adjust your chain to the spot you feel is correct (and be sure to do it the same way as usual: on the side stand), and then hoist the rear wheel off the ground by supporting the rear of the bike from overhead so you can take the weight off the rear suspension.

Then, remove the rear shock and front sprocket cover, move the rear wheel upward until the front sprocket shaft, swingarm pivot shaft, and rear wheel axle are all in a straight line, and see how much slack is in the chain at that point.

If you still have some slack, you are OK.

If the chain has no slack and is in fact under tension, you are not OK.

 

Then, swing the swingarm through it's range of normal rear suspension travel, observing the chain slack the whole time.

If the chain has tension on it at any point, you are not OK.

If the suspension is topped out on the sidestand, regardless of spring or preload setting, then none of those variables will matter.

 

I think with the OE springed shock on its softest preload, there will be a bit of static sag with the bike on the sidestand, but not much - maybe 1/2".

 

On my 1st ride home from the dealer, I hit an expansion joint that my Aprilia just rolls over and it launched me clean out of the saddle. That was w/o touching the preload from the factory. That's way more spring  than I'm now using now. My bike's not topped out on the side stand, but real close. His will most certainly be topped out. I gotta believe that the OE shock on the 3rd ramp is also.

 

Let's not forget, he got 20k miles on the stock set-up. Whether adjusting/lubing right or wrong, that's darn acceptable, imo, for a stock chain. . Gonna guess that routine hasn't changed, so something is definitely wrong. Maybe the new chain was just junk to start with.

 

And if it really is X links longer than it should have been, then that changes everything

[r1limited]

It really doesnt matter if the shock has no sag and is at its peak.  The range of motion on that Swing arm is engineered and thus the min max (2.01 to 2.20 inch) setting for chain slack.  What does this mean R1?

 

The range of motion of the rear tire is an arc, it has a shortest point and longest point during that range of motion aka Compression / Decompression including when the SHOCK is fully UNCOMPRESSED (Zero Gravity Lets say) or Topped out.  As an example a jump, while in the air the FZ rear is fully extended (Top) on landing the FZ rear is fully compressed.  So that Min Max Setting, really is about the range of Motion of the entire swing arm and any given time.  Road ways can cause this range of motion based on the speed of the bike and depth of the dip causing the swing arm to either compress more and or lift toward top more.  A happy Medium right or not so right, a stock FZ for the commuter should basicly be set at half the distance between 2.01 and 2.20 roughly 2.11.  Remember I said Stock not knowing the weight of the rider and we all now how great stock suspension is.  Now a fitted FZ with decent suspension setup for the weight of the rider what should that be set to R1?  I suggest a best practice of 2.11 as it is always a good idea to weigh on the side of caution.  NOw a more agreesive bike used for Track days, Dirt Track and or Adventure what should that be R1?  I suggest a best practice of 2.11 as it is always a good idea to weigh on the side of caution.  To Summerze, Get a new chain a good chain, this one is shot, get new sprockets front and back those are shot, adjust and check every 500 to 800 miles as the manual describes and Live Long and Prosper.

 

 

Just FyI

Event he damn user manual says to check chain every 500 to 800 miles or after wash (Page 7-6 Item 12)

[AlbatrossCafe]

3 hours ago, rick said:

Let's not forget, he got 20k miles on the stock set-up. Whether adjusting/lubing right or wrong, that's darn acceptable, imo, for a stock chain. . Gonna guess that routine hasn't changed, so something is definitely wrong. Maybe the new chain was just junk to start with.

This is what I was thinking. I got 20k miles and that was with some hard commuting (rain, snow, never cleaned chain). So what is different this time around?

 

My suspension was upgraded at the same time I got the new chain/sprockets. Not sure what to make of that since the "suspension affects chain slack" debate seems to be continuing in this thread, but that should at least be noted. Doing stuff like @YZEtc and others suggested would be nice, but that's a bit above-and-beyond what I am willing to do to diagnose it at the moment haha.

 

I didn't get a chance to count the links last night (according to @pattonme, there should be 108). But heading to shop today and I'll get info there hopefully.

 

Here is a pic of the rear sprocket. Looks like a Sunstar 4472-43:

 

 

Not sure where to find chain info? I have this pic, which denotes "Japan", "FP", and "525 FPO" on the links but not sure if that helps?

 

[r1limited]

^^ Its a WPS firepower chain I have no doubt its a cheap chain

 

https://www.wps-inc.com/news/article/fire-power-rolls-out-new-chains-for-2017/66

 

 

[mjh937]

@AlbatrossCafe, I looked around on Google and I think you have a Firepower o-ring chain.  The website says they are prestretched, but you may have proven otherwise. 

 

Edit: it looks like @r1limited can Google faster than me

[markstertt]

Spend the money once (well, twice now) and get a good chain and new sprockets, yours appear worn out and would be foolish to replace just the chain...a good chain with low maintenance will last longer than a cheap chain with low maintenance. In your case, a chain oiler would be most helpful. You can't go wrong with DID chain and vortex steel sprockets or oem sprockets but they may cost more for no added benefit. 

 

Once you've broken a chain and a set of engine cases you will pay more attention to the driveline...most abused part of most bikes.

[r1limited]

6 minutes ago, mjh937 said:

@AlbatrossCafe, I looked around on Google and I think you have a Firepower o-ring chain.  The website says they are prestretched, but you may have proven otherwise. 

 

Edit: it looks like @r1limited can Google faster than me

Nope, I recognized the chain. Then I googled, ya I am that good

[pattonme]

might want to try one of these:

http://www.ekchain.jp/product/

 

[markstertt]

I would like to see your C/S sprocket for wear patterns as your rear sprocket is showing more wear on the outboard side than I would expect on a low mileage sprocket. If you could take a flashlight and look at engine case behind the countershaft sprocket, do you see red rust dust inboard of the C/S sprocket? Looking at your chain, I can see flat spots on the bottom of your chain links (outer row more than inner) indicating the chain running on guide (expected and normal) but perhaps assymetrically...don't know exactly what I'm seeing not being there in person but I think there may be a little more scrutiny needed before consigning a new chain/sprockets to the same fate. Maybe nothing but looking is free. Did the shop save the old sprockets for you?

[rick]

Sprocket definitely looks worn - or maybe even the teeth are bent forward. Odd looking.

 

Looks like the 525s come as 110 for the shortest length - if it was installed as 110, that was a lazy mistake.  

[rick]

11 minutes ago, pattonme said:

might want to try one of these:

http://www.ekchain.jp/product/

 

or DID.

[derekfz]

My oem chain has 17,000 miles on it and I’ve only had to adjust it twice other than during two tire changes. I lube it every time it gets wet and once a week atleast. Still looks new lol. Definitely pays to take care of the chain! I’m interested to see when it actually does start wearing out. 

[faffi]

Although unlikely, sprockets from time to time have a radial runout, causing tension to vary and hence can lead to over-tension and wear. 

 

As to chain tension that vary with swingarm movement; the Ducati Pantah had the swingarm pivot at the output shaft, keeping tension identical throughout. IIRC, some Bimotas had the same feature. AFAIK, such a setup also eliminates the (anti)squatting that you get when your swingarm pivot sits behind the output shaft.

[AlbatrossCafe]

Just counted. 108 links. At least that is correct.

 

2 hours ago, r1limited said:

^^ Its a WPS firepower chain I have no doubt its a cheap chain

 

https://www.wps-inc.com/news/article/fire-power-rolls-out-new-chains-for-2017/66

 

It's definitely this chain. I recognize the gold color from when it was new.

[r1limited]

3 minutes ago, AlbatrossCafe said:

Just counted. 108 links. At least that is correct.

 

It's definitely this chain. I recognize the gold color from when it was new.

I thought it was rust

[rick]

22 minutes ago, r1limited said:

I thought it was rust

oh dear, me too.

[AlbatrossCafe]

Stopped by the installer this afternoon. Sounds like they will replace it for free. He said sprockets are in good shape (once we cleaned em off a bit). No bent teeth or anything. But the chain is completely done to his surprise. No reason as to why it happened, but if there is anything fishy, I'm sure they will investigate when doing the chain swap later this week.

 

8 hours ago, pattonme said:

might want to try one of these:

http://www.ekchain.jp/product/

 

Dude told me that WPS is actually the "house brand" of EK chain. So theoretically, they should be the same thing... 🤔

 

6 hours ago, r1limited said:

I thought it was rust

 

6 hours ago, rick said:

oh dear, me too.

Funny enough, the mechanic who did the inspection literally said "yeah, a lot of people will say 'oh this is rust!'". But really it is NOT rust and is actually the oil from inside the chain that has completely leaked out. 😄

[pattonme]

43 minutes ago, AlbatrossCafe said:

He said sprockets are in good shape (once we cleaned em off a bit).

rubbish. those teeth are hooked. It's 50 bucks for a set - for crying out loud rip and replace with new.

 

Also EK chains are good. RK chains are shet. Do not buy!