suspension's "fatal flaw"?

[stickshift]

The stock suspension is fine for fun around town and casual riding. In fact, I reckon Yamaha has tuned it for ‘fun’: easy wheelies, forgiving to throttle response etc. This is dependant on rider weight, riding pace, road/track condition, tyres, etc, etc.

I like to ride mine like a sports bike, so I have to update the suspension to suit sport/track riding. Simple.

I still reckon the single best mod for this bike is an aftermarket rear shock. Forget all the shiny bolt ons, do this first.

[blackout]

2 hours ago, stickshift said:

The stock suspension is fine for fun around town and casual riding. In fact, I reckon Yamaha has tuned it for ‘fun’: easy wheelies, forgiving to throttle response etc. This is dependant on rider weight, riding pace, road/track condition, tyres, etc, etc.

I like to ride mine like a sports bike, so I have to update the suspension to suit sport/track riding. Simple.

I still reckon the single best mod for this bike is an aftermarket rear shock. Forget all the shiny bolt ons, do this first.

You nailed it.  I guarantee the suspension is tuned for ease of wheelies.  Yamaha is not stupid.  They know where the bike will be mostly spent, one wheel in the air.

[bornagainbiker]

I have a 2016 and still running stock suspension, with no complaints.  Mind you I'm no knee drager, more of a "grandpa out for a Sunday ride" kind of rider.

[klx678]

On 2/22/2020 at 11:07 AM, blackout said:

I have lost a little respect for Dave Moss.  Seems a little dramatic and he never really explains the tech behind the "problem" spacer.

Dramatic gets attention.  That's the plan with the title to this video.  Plus he did explain it - inadequate sag and a bit about it.

 

 

On 2/22/2020 at 8:08 PM, norcal616 said:

Fatal flaw= using 130# teenage sized test riders vs realistic owner weights... 

Watch the first part where he described what to be done based on weight, for spacer shortening and fork fluid recommendations.   

 

It clearly was all about sag for the most part, with the comment about the fork fluid that will work better with the OEM valving.  All for free on a video.

I wonder if the forks are the same deal on the XSR.

[timjh]

I can't get my front to "bounce" like he demonstrates.

[blackout]

1 hour ago, klx678 said:

Dramatic gets attention.  That's the plan with the title to this video.  Plus he did explain it - inadequate sag and a bit about it.

 

 

Watch the first part where he described what to be done based on weight, for spacer shortening and fork fluid recommendations.   

 

It clearly was all about sag for the most part, with the comment about the fork fluid that will work better with the OEM valving.  All for free on a video.

I wonder if the forks are the same deal on the XSR.

His older videos never used dramatic titles get views.  But I guess he's competing with the other click bate you tubers.  "Fatal flaw", poor taste in words.

[Socalmt]

The 2018+ bikes have different suspension settings. 6% stiffer front spring, 16% increase in damping.  The shock has rebound damping adjustability. The big change in the damping is a 27 percent increase in high-speed rebound action, and a whopping 40 percent increase in the high-speed compression damping. To compensate for the slower damping, the spring rate went up 11 percent.  This guys info doesn’t apply to the 2018 plus bikes

[HulkHogan]

On 2/22/2020 at 8:07 AM, blackout said:

I have lost a little respect for Dave Moss.  Seems a little dramatic and he never really explains the tech behind the "problem" spacer.

 

He is dramatic and doesn't always spell things out.  For example in his last newsletter he was talking about brake fluid and says Do you simply screw the cap back on the bottle or are you sure to triple-seal the bottle.  And that's it.  Well as someone that just screws the cap back on the bottle I'd like to hear what this triple sealing is...

He does know his stuff.  I still have a lot of respect for him as a tuner, and would like for him to check my bike out if I ever see him at the track.

[klx678]

2 hours ago, Socalmt said:

The 2018+ bikes have different suspension settings. 6% stiffer front spring, 16% increase in damping.  The shock has rebound damping adjustability. The big change in the damping is a 27 percent increase in high-speed rebound action, and a whopping 40 percent increase in the high-speed compression damping. To compensate for the slower damping, the spring rate went up 11 percent.  This guys info doesn’t apply to the 2018 plus bikes

Maybe specific spacer sizing and fluid weight don't but I would think the sag definitely would.  After all, every suspension tuning thread or article always has adjusting sag.   Plus if there wasn't any room for improvement for a rider there are a lot of suspension businesses ripping everyone off.

Just sayin' the suspension is a general setting, what works for a 120 lb rider versus a 220 lb rider very likely will not work.  

[klx678]

20 minutes ago, HulkHogan said:

 

He is dramatic and doesn't always spell things out.  For example in his last newsletter he was talking about brake fluid and says Do you simply screw the cap back on the bottle or are you sure to triple-seal the bottle.  And that's it.  Well as someone that just screws the cap back on the bottle I'd like to hear what this triple sealing is...

He does know his stuff.  I still have a lot of respect for him as a tuner, and would like for him to check my bike out if I ever see him at the track.

Comment on brake fluid, once opened I'd not use it again if it sat on the shelf, why not just buy more.  Get small bottles.   This article - click - has some interesting information, including one observation from brake company Wilwood.    As for his triple sealing, have to ask him.

[kylerhsm]

Not to be rude at all, but I think that those of you who find the MT07/FZ07 suspension to be OK may not have had much experience with better suspended bikes. I always have multiple bikes in my garage so I get plenty of time to compare like for like along the exact same riding routes. Where the MT07 (mine is a 2016) falls flat is the rebound damping on the rear, which makes the bike wallow and wobble if you hit a bump or a dip while you're taking a corner. I also found the overall compression damping quite harsh for rough roads. Compartively, the MT03 660 (as in my profile pic) was far smoother over the exact same roads and didn't wallow in the rear anywhere near as much. The Street Triple (non-R) is just as harsh as the MT07, but with far better rebound damping giving much more confidence on imperfect corners and feeling very much more planted.

You'll always get used to the bike you own, but when you own a few it's so much easier to make a comparison. I have upgraded suspension now and no looking back.

[cornerslider]

On 2/27/2020 at 5:35 PM, kylerhsm said:

Not to be rude at all, but I think that those of you who find the MT07/FZ07 suspension to be OK may not have had much experience with better suspended bikes. I always have multiple bikes in my garage so I get plenty of time to compare like for like along the exact same riding routes. Where the MT07 (mine is a 2016) falls flat is the rebound damping on the rear, which makes the bike wallow and wobble if you hit a bump or a dip while you're taking a corner. I also found the overall compression damping quite harsh for rough roads. Compartively, the MT03 660 (as in my profile pic) was far smoother over the exact same roads and didn't wallow in the rear anywhere near as much. The Street Triple (non-R) is just as harsh as the MT07, but with far better rebound damping giving much more confidence on imperfect corners and feeling very much more planted.

You'll always get used to the bike you own, but when you own a few it's so much easier to make a comparison. I have upgraded suspension now and no looking back.

+1 on THIS!!! I can't bite my tongue any longer.... I mean no disrespect to Dave Moss, but setting up a suspension requires MUCH more than cutting down a spacer by 10mm. I highly doubt any street rider will be able to feel any difference by a 10mm difference in a spacer. To make any real gains on the forks, you need to spend money on it. I use a well respected local suspension tuner (Trackside Labs). I used to get too  caught up in "sag" numbers before I went to Trackside labs.... Once I did, the owner/tuner pretty much de-bunked my whole thought process. ... He said "when was the last time you rode your bike without being on it"??? He then suggested, get the proper springs (front and rear), and find the settings that work for YOU, and  what feels "right" to YOU. It's a balancing act between the front & rear end. I no longer street ride my FZ-07, and it's now my dedicated track-only bike. I'm not denying that a 10mm cut to the spacer isn't a good idea. Just don't expect miracles to your front end without spending money on other upgrades-

[HulkHogan]

Finally watched the video.  Pretty good.  He’s right, but funny thinking about someone going through disposable stock shocks every so many miles.  

I’d recommend using PVC pipe for a spacer because I tried cutting my metal spacer and it came out like crap and was uneven.  It was much easier to shape the PVC.

[Bigturbomax]

On 2/27/2020 at 1:44 PM, Socalmt said:

The 2018+ bikes have different suspension settings. 6% stiffer front spring, 16% increase in damping.  The shock has rebound damping adjustability. The big change in the damping is a 27 percent increase in high-speed rebound action, and a whopping 40 percent increase in the high-speed compression damping. To compensate for the slower damping, the spring rate went up 11 percent.  This guys info doesn’t apply to the 2018 plus bikes

Amd THIS is why my 2017 bike rides so much better with a 2018 rear shock lol

[Bigturbomax]

4 hours ago, HulkHogan said:

Finally watched the video.  Pretty good.  He’s right, but funny thinking about someone going through disposable stock shocks every so many miles.  ">

I’d recommend using PVC pipe for a spacer because I tried cutting my metal spacer and it came out like crap and was uneven.  It was much easier to shape the PVC.

What diameter PVC is recommended for this? 

[HulkHogan]

53 minutes ago, Bigturbomax said:

What diameter PVC is recommended for this? 

Personally, I used 1”

 

[shinyribs]

On 2/23/2020 at 6:33 AM, kylerhsm said:

Say what? The FZ-07 suspension "tech" is nice? It's far worse than the suspension from plenty of bikes from the 90's, and not particularly expensive bikes either.

On paper, yeah, it's nothing extraordinary. But in reality, it all works together far better than those bikes from 30 years. 

[shinyribs]

On 2/22/2020 at 11:07 AM, blackout said:

I have lost a little respect for Dave Moss.  Seems a little dramatic and he never really explains the tech behind the "problem" spacer.

I struggle to understand the following he has. I'm not going to make a list, but just in the video posted, he states several things that are just wrong. 

[shinyribs]

On 2/23/2020 at 10:26 AM, watarski said:

So has anyone done what he suggested to the front forks?  Cutting down the spacers and putting in heavier oil?  I'm not really at a point where I want to drop more cash on a new fork setup (especially since my wife may get my current MT...) but I would be curious if just those two things will make a significant difference from stock.  I have an Ohlins rear shock I got on a smoking Christmas deal, would like a little more performance out of the front. 

IMO, his oil recommendations are ridiculous. I'm 220lbs and run 12w oil. According to Dave I need 25-30w oil. The bike would be unrideable at that point IMO. 

At my weight, using 12W oil, the fork action is noticeably firmer than stock. It's slower to rebound at the expense of a harsher ride on compression. On some bumps the compression harshness is pretty bad. But, as it is a basic fork, and you can't "tune" rebound and compression separately, it's a compromise I can work with. I'm running stock springs and spacers and my sag is spot on. 

[shinyribs]

On 2/27/2020 at 12:22 PM, timjh said:

I can't get my front to "bounce" like he demonstrates.

Because you aren't repeatedly pushing down then pulling up on the bars to force it in to a bounce, while pretending the bike is doing it by itself, like he is doing.

[fzar]

I'll just leave this here:

If I ever had the opportunity for Dave Moss to work on my bike, I'd take it. (at this point I'd listen to anyone with experience in suspension set-up) Private session, personal breakdown on what I need and what I'm looking for out of my machine.

He's an ex-racer that has won a fair bit of jewelry in his time. He is not a TV presenter. He saw an opportunity to pass his knowledge on to others (which he was probably doing for free before) and realised we (not all) mere mortals are clueless about suspension. Why not make a few $$ ??

There's always going to be bait for you to sign up/subscribe to his channel, that's how he makes money! ( Think sans business cards, its a digital age)  He still gives a lot of people free advice.  I'll add also that the go-to suspension person that used to be on here, pretty much agrees with him. Although if your going to bring up fork oil weight, which is a useless label. The correct oil is measured in CST@- 40C or 100C.

In reality I think he's an honesty guy trying his best and people don't get his no shet attitude. He does try to stop himself saying certain things that could get him in trouble, in light of being more acceptable to a wider audience (FCC). Capitalism at its best, don't be a begrudger, yeah the TV career isn't looking good in the future, but his knowledge of suspension is phenomenal  and subscribers is healthy.

I dare anyone to go on camera and explain what your trying to convey in a manner that is restrictive on time but demands enough information to pull you in. intrinsically. 

That's what he does. Is he a snake oil dude! I think not.

I thought my suspension was fine too for 2.5 years, sag# were good. I then changed the shock and was asking myself why didn't I do this first. The F/R have been swapped out and it's night and day.

Just my opinion.

                                  Dave.

[cornerslider]

44 minutes ago, fzar said:

I'll just leave this here:

If I ever had the opportunity for Dave Moss to work on my bike, I'd take it. (at this point I'd listen to anyone with experience in suspension set-up) Private session, personal breakdown on what I need and what I'm looking for out of my machine.

He's an ex-racer that has won a fair bit of jewelry in his time. He is not a TV presenter. He saw an opportunity to pass his knowledge on to others (which he was probably doing for free before) and realised we (not all) mere mortals are clueless about suspension. Why not make a few $$ ??

There's always going to be bait for you to sign up/subscribe to his channel, that's how he makes money! ( Think sans business cards, its a digital age)  He still gives a lot of people free advice.  I'll add also that the go-to suspension person that used to be on here, pretty much agrees with him. Although if your going to bring up fork oil weight, which is a useless label. The correct oil is measured in CST@- 40C or 100C.

In reality I think he's an honesty guy trying his best and people don't get his no shet attitude. He does try to stop himself saying certain things that could get him in trouble, in light of being more acceptable to a wider audience (FCC). Capitalism at its best, don't be a begrudger, yeah the TV career isn't looking good in the future, but his knowledge of suspension is phenomenal  and subscribers is healthy.

I dare anyone to go on camera and explain what your trying to convey in a manner that is restrictive on time but demands enough information to pull you in.

That's what he does. Is he a snake oil dude! I think not.

I thought my suspension was fine too for 2.5 years, sag# were good. I then changed the shock and was asking myself why didn't I do this first. The F/R have been swapped out and it's night and day.

Just my opinion.

                                  Dave.

I understand that Dave is very knowledgeable, in ALL things suspension... He's even written a very successful book on the topic! I have nothing but respect for the man. What I dislike is that in this video, he insinuates that all you need to do is cut 10mm out of the spacer, and all your suspension woes will disappear. I think we all know that isn't true. It might be a good start, but let's be honest. The FZ/MT-07 is marketed as in entry level bike. I highly doubt that Yamaha ever imagined this bike would ever become a serious track bike, much less be raced in MotoAmerica!!! They hit it out of the park with this bike! That being said, it was marketed to fit a certain price point. That has them saving money where they can- (suspension). Daves' advise is most likely spot-on for street riders, or newer riders that want a little improvement in their suspension. I've been riding for nearly 40 years, and I doubt I could feel a difference in a 10mm change in a spacer in my forks? I'm NOT suggesting that everyone needs to spend $1,000 on a cartridge kit. There are many lower priced options that will improve the front end on our bike dramatically. I did appreciate that Dave mentioned changing out the rear shock after "X" amount of miles. That's just good maintenance- parts wear out!!! I'm glad you are happy with the Ohlins shock you bought from me. Even GOOD suspension components need servicing! Keep up the servicing on it, and it will serve you well for many years-

[Bigturbomax]

On 2/29/2020 at 10:03 PM, HulkHogan said:

Personally, I used 1”

 

Thanks!

[Grip it & Rip it]

On 2/27/2020 at 3:35 PM, kylerhsm said:

Not to be rude at all, but I think that those of you who find the MT07/FZ07 suspension to be OK may not have had much experience with better suspended bikes. I always have multiple bikes in my garage so I get plenty of time to compare like for like along the exact same riding routes. Where the MT07 (mine is a 2016) falls flat is the rebound damping on the rear, which makes the bike wallow and wobble if you hit a bump or a dip while you're taking a corner. I also found the overall compression damping quite harsh for rough roads. Compartively, the MT03 660 (as in my profile pic) was far smoother over the exact same roads and didn't wallow in the rear anywhere near as much. The Street Triple (non-R) is just as harsh as the MT07, but with far better rebound damping giving much more confidence on imperfect corners and feeling very much more planted.

You'll always get used to the bike you own, but when you own a few it's so much easier to make a comparison. I have upgraded suspension now and no looking back.

It's true that I've never had a better suspended bike. But I've also never experienced the wallow/wobble when hitting a bump or dip in a corner. Could just be that the twisties I usually hit here in CA are just smooth and well paved.

[shinyribs]

On 3/2/2020 at 9:46 PM, cornerslider said:

 What I dislike is that in this video, he insinuates that all you need to do is cut 10mm out of the spacer, and all your suspension woes will disappear.

I don't want to nitpick the guy. I don't have anything against him. I don't follow racing (don't watch tv or anything) and am admittedly clueless about his career and reputation. But I'll explain my gripes with this particular issue. 

The young lady who had her rear preload cranked up. Simply due to her height, he dropped her forks in the trees, cranked her rear preload low as possible and told her to remove length from the stock preload spacers. He asked her why she cranked the rear preload. She didn't really answer. He talks hard and fast like a used car salesman. She was obviously stunned by everything going on and wasn't able to process everything to be able to answer him. 

Chances are she cranked the rear preload to help combat the lack of rebound the FZ's are famous for. On a smooth road these bikes are smooth. On successive bumps the rear end can get out of sorts quick. Cranking the preload forces the spring pressure to try to top out the shock, which is a bandaid "fix", but the only option we have in stock trim. It doesn't fix anything, but it's better than nothing. 

So, take a lady that (seemingly) doesn't have a deep understanding of her suspension and

1- undo her "fix" for the wild rear rebound issue 

2- drop the forks thru the trees ( quicker steering/less stability at speed)

3- send her on her way

Now she has bike that has even worse rebound issues out back than before AND you just made her bike handle differently/twitchier/less stable by futzing with the forks. She went from a bandaid "fix" that, at least, she was accustomed to...to a completely new feeling handling situation and a rear rebound issue reverted back to poo. 

I can't fathom why anyone would make a bike less stable and unpredictable for someone who obviously doesn't understand everything going on. And anyone recommending the rear shock doesn't strike me as someone that has any appreciable amount of seat time on one of these bikes. 

Everyone had their own ways of tuning things. That's fine. But I really dislike the changes he made to the young lady's bike, then just rushed her away to deal with the new changes on her own- and without and warning or instruction. Very unprofessional/thorough IMO, but...that's JMO. 

That, and he kept remarking how the bikes have no front sag, explaining that was the reason for everyone needing to chop the spring spacers down. However, immediately after declaring the forks were topped out with zero sag....he sits the bike on the kickstand and you can clearly see the suspension extend back to rest...un-sagging the static sag he said didn't exist! Really? 

The only frame of reference I have for Dave Moss' suspension tuning prowess is his videos. I have intimate knowledge of my own FZ07's suspension.  No disrespect intended towards Dave, but I'm just not feeling any urges to seek out his advice. I'd happily sit down over lunch and chat with him about suspension, though.