shinyribs Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Grip it & Rip it said: It's true that I've never had a better suspended bike. But I've also never experienced the wallow/wobble when hitting a bump or dip in a corner. Could just be that the twisties I usually hit here in CA are just smooth and well paved. On a good road, they are marvelous bikes! On a rough road they can get pretty sketchy when pushed hard. I've definitely ridden worse! And I wouldn't go so far to say they are dangerous for anyone riding responsibly on average public roads. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicOD Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 Question though, my bike has legit zero rear shock sag. My bike has 15k on it and it's on notch 5, I'm 150 pounds. Don't really know what to do. I've adjusted it all around and never get sag. Guessing the shock is just worn or... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 (edited) 35 minutes ago, DominicOD said: Question though, my bike has legit zero rear shock sag. My bike has 15k on it and it's on notch 5, I'm 150 pounds. Don't really know what to do. I've adjusted it all around and never get sag. Guessing the shock is just worn or... The quick answer is, if you have zero laden sag with your preload at the lowest setting, you would need a softer rear spring. Your issue won't be related to wear. The amount of sag you have will be directly related to the strength spring. It doesn't have anything to do with the compression/rebound portion of the shock. The spring is the suspension that actually holds the bike up, the compression/rebound circuits are there only to control bump absorption, but offer no strength in supporting the weight of the vehicle. While it's possible to wear out a spring ( it starts to lose tension ) it takes several years and MANY miles to do this. Like, maybe 100,000 miles+ to wear out a spring on a street bikes? Many offroad bikes absolutely punish suspension and seeing an appreciable loss of tension is rare. The only noticeable wear you will experience on a shock or worn out oil causing compression/rebound to behave differently. There's two possible things people could be referring to when they say sag. Static sag refers to a bike with no rider sagging under it's own weight off the kickstand. Race or laden sag refers to sag with you mounted. General rule of thumb is to aim for 25-33% of total available travel. Easy math example: for a bike with 10 inches of travel, aim for 2.5 -3.3 inches of laden sag. But, that's a general rule of thumb and other factors need to be considered. Our bikes run about 5 inches of total travel.Not a whole lot, but very typical for this type of bike. If you set the sag too deep you can run out of travel pretty quickly on sharp hits. It's a balancing act of personal preference, type of roads ridden,etc. IMO, as a very general rule of thumb, about 1 inch (~25mm) is a good starting point for rear sag on these bikes. That's a bit shy of 20% of total available travel. The idea for setting laden sag is to ensure the suspension isn't topped out, or sitting at full extension at all times. You want a little headroom for the shock to able to extend when cruising normal. Not all road imperfections are raised bumps. Some are dips or hollows. If the suspension is already fully extended ( no laden sag) and you ride over a dip/hollow the tire doesn't have any travel to extend down and try to absorb the dip. The only thing the bike can do it "fall" down in to the dip, which has a harsh feeling to it. Basically the same as driving off a sidewalk. Plop! Also, with no sag, if you hit a hard raised bump that compresses the suspension fully- the bike will naturally try to rebound quickly as well, as the spring energy will try to rebound quickly. Running some sag gives you a bit of headroom again to help prevent topping out in this scenario. In a perfect world you never want to bottom or top out your suspension, but try to remain fully "suspended", and floating within the available travel. You can try adjusting your preload to achieve an inch or so of laden sag and see how you like it. You should notice that the rear rebound will misbehave more with the lighter spring preload, so I would approach it in stages and see how you like the changes. You may find you prefer more or less than 1" of sag, or you may prefer no sag at all with your exact shock. There are valid reasons why some people want to know their static/unladen sag numbers AND their laden sag numbers at the same time. It can be helpful in determining proper spring rates, but it can be confusing and your kinda getting in to the deep end at that point. But for sake of this discussion it would be unneeded confusion. Edited March 7, 2020 by shinyribs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmo Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 Not sure where the 5th notch is, full soft? What is your bike sag measuring method? Rear wheel off ground using kickstand, and then back on kickstand, and have same dimension? What's your current rider sag 30-35 mm? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicOD Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 Still trying to learn how sag works and what the differences are so please forgive my ignorance. I believe sag is when you lift the rear tail up and that clearance would be your sag, however can be completely wrong. That's where I am saying that my bike has zero clearance and doesn't move up. To explain the 5th notch I have attached a picture. I don't know my current measurements and don't know how to correctly measure. Again sorry for my ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicOD Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 1 hour ago, shinyribs said: The quick answer is, if you have zero laden sag with your preload at the lowest setting, you would need a softer rear spring. Your issue won't be related to wear. The amount of sag you have will be directly related to the strength spring. It doesn't have anything to do with the compression/rebound portion of the shock. The spring is the suspension that actually holds the bike up, the compression/rebound circuits are there only to control bump absorption, but offer no strength in supporting the weight of the vehicle. While it's possible to wear out a spring ( it starts to lose tension ) it takes several years and MANY miles to do this. Like, maybe 100,000 miles+ to wear out a spring on a street bikes? Many offroad bikes absolutely punish suspension and seeing an appreciable loss of tension is rare. The only noticeable wear you will experience on a shock or worn out oil causing compression/rebound to behave differently. There's two possible things people could be referring to when they say sag. Static sag refers to a bike with no rider sagging under it's own weight off the kickstand. Race or laden sag refers to sag with you mounted. General rule of thumb is to aim for 25-33% of total available travel. Easy math example: for a bike with 10 inches of travel, aim for 2.5 -3.3 inches of laden sag. But, that's a general rule of thumb and other factors need to be considered. Our bikes run about 5 inches of total travel.Not a whole lot, but very typical for this type of bike. If you set the sag too deep you can run out of travel pretty quickly on sharp hits. It's a balancing act of personal preference, type of roads ridden,etc. IMO, as a very general rule of thumb, about 1 inch (~25mm) is a good starting point for rear sag on these bikes. That's a bit shy of 20% of total available travel. The idea for setting laden sag is to ensure the suspension isn't topped out, or sitting at full extension at all times. You want a little headroom for the shock to able to extend when cruising normal. Not all road imperfections are raised bumps. Some are dips or hollows. If the suspension is already fully extended ( no laden sag) and you ride over a dip/hollow the tire doesn't have any travel to extend down and try to absorb the dip. The only thing the bike can do it "fall" down in to the dip, which has a harsh feeling to it. Basically the same as driving off a sidewalk. Plop! Also, with no sag, if you hit a hard raised bump that compresses the suspension fully- the bike will naturally try to rebound quickly as well, as the spring energy will try to rebound quickly. Running some sag gives you a bit of headroom again to help prevent topping out in this scenario. In a perfect world you never want to bottom or top out your suspension, but try to remain fully "suspended", and floating within the available travel. You can try adjusting your preload to achieve an inch or so of laden sag and see how you like it. You should notice that the rear rebound will misbehave more with the lighter spring preload, so I would approach it in stages and see how you like the changes. You may find you prefer more or less than 1" of sag, or you may prefer no sag at all with your exact shock. There are valid reasons why some people want to know their static/unladen sag numbers AND their laden sag numbers at the same time. It can be helpful in determining proper spring rates, but it can be confusing and your kinda getting in to the deep end at that point. But for sake of this discussion it would be unneeded confusion. And awesome explaination. Makes sense so suppose some things I've heard about shock "wear" is decently false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 1 hour ago, DominicOD said: And awesome explaination. Makes sense so suppose some things I've heard about shock "wear" is decently false. You definitely can wear out a shock, but really only the oil and some internal bushings. Wearing out an actually spring is gonna be very rare. But yeah, the oil inside will get beat up after so many miles and need replacing. When it needs replacing it's just like a worn out shock on an auto- bounce bounce bounce. How many miles can a stock 07 shock go before the oil is bad and needs replacing? I have no clue. We'll have to wait for guys racking up miles on stock suspension to chime in on that, and I'm afraid we won't see much of that. I've got shocks off mid 90's sport bikes I've rebuilt with anywhere from 10k to over 50k+ miles on them. Very negligible difference, if any, regarding internal wear. I've never seen one completely "worn out", though I'm sure it happens. The beauty on monoshock suspension is the wheel travels much further than the shock does due to the linkage ratios. Not only does it help keep the oil cool and working consistently, it also greatly extends the life of everything. p.s.- never know who's reading this stuff, so if it feels like I'm dumbing down things or talking down to anyone, I apologize, but it's not intended. Just trying to be simple regarding the basics. Once you demistify some of the lingo b it's pretty easy to wrap your head around what's going on. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicOD Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 1 minute ago, shinyribs said: You definitely can wear out a shock, but really only the oil and some internal bushings. Wearing out an actually spring is gonna be very rare. But yeah, the oil inside will get beat up after so many miles and need replacing. When it needs replacing it's just like a worn out shock on an auto- bounce bounce bounce. How many miles can a stock 07 shock go before the oil is bad and needs replacing? I have no clue. We'll have to wait for guys racking up miles on stock suspension to chime in on that, and I'm afraid we won't see much of that. I've got shocks off mid 90's sport bikes I've rebuilt with anywhere from 10k to over 50k+ miles on them. Very negligible difference, if any, regarding internal wear. I've never seen one completely "worn out", though I'm sure it happens. The beauty on monoshock suspension is the wheel travels much further than the shock does due to the linkage ratios. Not only does it help keep the oil cool and working consistently, it also greatly extends the life of everything. p.s.- never know who's reading this stuff, so if it feels like I'm dumbing down things or talking down to anyone, I apologize, but it's not intended. Just trying to be simple regarding the basics. Once you demistify some of the lingo b it's pretty easy to wrap your head around what's going on. Haha I appreciate the dumbing down, my main problem is gonna be the lingo as I understand most things just not the actual names. But thanks for explaining, and yeah I knew the oil and such can wear but was relating to the spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, DominicOD said: Still trying to learn how sag works and what the differences are so please forgive my ignorance. I believe sag is when you lift the rear tail up and that clearance would be your sag, however can be completely wrong. That's where I am saying that my bike has zero clearance and doesn't move up. To explain the 5th notch I have attached a picture. I don't know my current measurements and don't know how to correctly measure. Again sorry for my ignorance. Holding the bike upright, lift the tail to fully extend the suspension. Gently allow the bike to come back to resting under it's own weight. The difference between those the heights will be static/unladen sag. It's just how much the bike squats as a whole, not how much the actual shock is compressed. Just pick any two points to measure from. I typically use the axle adjuster bolts as they are easy to hook a tape measure on. Then choose a point on the tail to measure. Sometimes it's easiest to put a mark on a piece of masking tape you stuck on the tail. Measure from the "body" of the bike to a point on the swingarm. The closer you get to the axle centerline, and the more vertical you hold your tape measure, the more accurate your measurement will be. But consistentcy is more important than accuracy...sorta lol. For laden/race sag, measure at the same points while seated on the bike. The distance between fully extended and you seated will be your laden sag. There's some other small details to consider, but that's 90% of it. Edited March 7, 2020 by shinyribs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicOD Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 5 minutes ago, shinyribs said: Holding the bike upright, lift the tail to fully extend the suspension. Gently allow the bike to come back to resting under it's own with. The difference between those the heights will be static/unladen sag. Just pick any to points to measure from. I typically use the axle adjuster bolts as they are easy to hook a tape measure on. Then choose a point on the tail to measure. Sometimes it's easiest to put a mark on a piece of masking tape you stuck on the tail. For laden/race sag, measure at the same points while seated on the bike. The distance between fully extended and your seated will be your laden sag. There's some other small details to consider, but that's 90% of it. Awesome, appreciate it. However when I try to lift the tail, how you mentioned, it does not lift at all. There is zero play in it for.. some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 Edited/added some bits in the above post ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 1 minute ago, DominicOD said: Awesome, appreciate it. However when I try to lift the tail, how you mentioned, it does not lift at all. There is zero play in it for.. some reason. That's not unusual. Many street bikes have 0 unladen sag. Personally, my main concern is laden sag. As cornerslider mentioned: " how often do you ride your bike without sitting on it"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicOD Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 1 minute ago, shinyribs said: That's not unusual. Many street bikes have 0 unladen sag. Personally, my main concern is laden sag. As cornerslider mentioned: " how often do you ride your bike without sitting on it"? Oh, good to know. I will try and grab a friend to help me measure the laden sag. Do you know the recommended measurements for laden lag with the FZ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 1 minute ago, DominicOD said: Oh, good to know. I will try and grab a friend to help me measure the laden sag. Do you know the recommended measurements for laden lag with the FZ? I prefer to only cover the basics and let people land on their own preferences regarding hard numbers. General rule of thumb is 25-33% (1/4 to 1/3) of total travel. IIRC, our bikes are around 5.25" of travel, so a quarter of that would be a little over 1.25" of laden sag. Personally, I would start at around 1" max and see how you like it. Always make small adjustments and always test on the same roads and under the same conditions ( speed, luggage, weight, etc). I'm running a CBR600RR shock that I revalved, weigh 220lbs butt naked and have my bike set up to run fast over some pretty rough roads. My own numbers would be horrible for 95% of the guys on here. My riding style is also very much front heavy. I won't even post my own front/rear sag numbers because I wouldn't want anyone to try to copy it. It's wonky, but works for my specific needs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicOD Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 11 minutes ago, shinyribs said: I prefer to only cover the basics and let people land on their own preferences regarding hard numbers. General rule of thumb is 25-33% (1/4 to 1/3) of total travel. IIRC, our bikes are around 5.25" of travel, so a quarter of that would be a little over 1.25" of laden sag. Personally, I would start at around 1" max and see how you like it. Always make small adjustments and always test on the same roads and under the same conditions ( speed, luggage, weight, etc). I'm running a CBR600RR shock that I revalved, weigh 220lbs butt naked and have my bike set up to run fast over some pretty rough roads. My own numbers would be horrible for 95% of the guys on here. My riding style is also very much front heavy. I won't even post my own front/rear sag numbers because I wouldn't want anyone to try to copy it. It's wonky, but works for my specific needs. Awesome. Thank you for the advice you've been great. I'll have to look more into it and figure out how to adjust everything to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 The most important thing to remember is that I'm a nameless, faceless idiot from the internet and you should only make changes to your bike depending on what makes sense to you 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstyammerha Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 I've seen this Dave Moss' name pop up a few times on this and other sites so I decided to check this video out and I can say he may be a tremendous rider but I bet somebody else set his suspension up. I was making all kinds of faces listening to him coach this woman rider on her bikes set up. That heavy oil is going to slow things down in both directions. ShinyRibs and others saw this too and brought it up. Spring rates are the key and she should drop down some front and rear. IMO of course. Also, sorry if I hurt any feelings out there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7fold Posted March 9, 2020 Author Share Posted March 9, 2020 @shinyribs Definitely a helpful "getting your feet wet" explanation and kind of what I was looking for. Are there any resources out there that explain how to set up our stock suspensions - really interested in the 2018+ years as our rears have both rebound and damping adjustments. I get what you're saying with the laden sag, but was wondering where rebound damping comes into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinyribs Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 9 hours ago, 7fold said: @shinyribs Definitely a helpful "getting your feet wet" explanation and kind of what I was looking for. Are there any resources out there that explain how to set up our stock suspensions - really interested in the 2018+ years as our rears have both rebound and damping adjustments. I get what you're saying with the laden sag, but was wondering where rebound damping comes into play. Hey bud. Unfortunately, there's not a whole of damping adjustment available on the stock shocks. You are lucky to have the updated version that has rebound damping adjustment. I've never played with one of those shocks, so I don't know how effective the rebound adjuster is on that particular shock. Just to clarify, rebound and compression are both types of damping. Preload only refers to the spring tension. Preload settiings/ spring rates or completely different than the than rebound/compression damping portion of the shock. In the auto world what we call a shock is more accurately called a coil-over shock. The spring is purely what suspends the bike, those shock is what dampens suspension movement. Hope that makes sense. Damping comes in to play if the bike feels like a pogo under you, aka the suspension doesn't settle down after a bump. If you feel the bike bouncing up and down several times after hitting a bump then more damping will help control that. The main thing to consider is if you have any complaints right now. If you feel the back end is too active ( wont stop bouncing after a bump) you can add more rebound damping to try to tone it down. Here's a good visual. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iSmkGrnBud Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) So after reading this entire post and taking all things into consideration I was working on my bike today, somehow my chain got wonky loose, like 3 1/2 inches of slack travel I could hear it slapping. So I got the chain slack tightened up to spec and decided to change the preload on my shock. Now granted I did some weekend riding, hit some good corners and never really felt any suspension issues that felt off to me, knee sliding no problem. It was still set at 3 being a new bike, but today I decided to drop it down to a 1 to the softest since im 5'6 and a whopping 110 lbs wet. It just made sense to me being so light id want it on the softest setting due to low weight. I tried to measure unladen sag but it seems like the bike has zero when I lift it in the rear, maybe a few MMs of travel. Is riding at the softest setting something ill be able to notice when riding, being so light? What am I looking for when riding to know If I need to go up or down on preload? Suspension noob here as far as dialing in and getting set up, I understand the mechanical operations of what does what and when but as far as feeling and adjusting to feel im lost. TIA for any insight and information. I didnt change the rebound settings yet, that I sort of know how to adjust and dial in, my R6 had a nice Ohlins in it and I got pretty good getting it where I liked it, I have TONS of rough manhole cover and shet streets where I live so practicing with that was easy. Edited March 10, 2020 by iSmkGrnBud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7fold Posted March 10, 2020 Author Share Posted March 10, 2020 @shinyribs Awesome - thanks so much for the explanation. That's exactly what I was looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstyammerha Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 the stock shock can control about a 500lb. rate spring at most in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatrgof Posted April 26, 2020 Share Posted April 26, 2020 I did the mod and it is the best thing I could have done for my bike. I felt there was always a real issue with the handling, and this mod makes the bike handle way better than before. Now the rear shock is showing how bad it is now that the front is good to go. The bike tracks way better than before, and even slow handling is improved. Would I do it again, you better believe it, and it is very simple to do, highly recommended. I weigh 215 lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Terry_b Posted May 27, 2020 Premium Member Share Posted May 27, 2020 I also did this mod after a LOT of research. I just felt like the front was way too much like a pogo stick over bumpy roads... and in New England, that's most of them. I went with 10mm off the spacer using a pipe cutter and deburred them before I put them back in. I used 15W maxima oil and I honestly feel like I could still go a bit heavier for further improvement. I did NOT slide the fork tubes up in the clamps because I did not want to change the geometry at all. **I did do that with my FZ1 - to great effect - as well as some fine tuning with the oil weights in each fork tube since it had rebound one side and compression on the other.)** This was honestly a huge improvement in making the front more compliant for me. I am 6 ft and 185 geared up and it really helped the front feel more stable over rough roads for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twf Posted May 27, 2020 Share Posted May 27, 2020 58 minutes ago, Terry_b said: I did NOT slide the fork tubes up in the clamps because I did not want to change the geometry at all. You did change geometry. If you really wanted same as it was you would need to drop forks down in clamps to raise front to same geometry you had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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