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Progressive cartridge with ktech shock


MTbrett7

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Anyone ever run progressive fork cartridges with a ktech light rear shock? I’m about 3,000 miles into my 22 mt07 and I’m starting to look at the suspension to get it fine tuned. I’m just wondering how the balance is. I’ve been reading around the forum for a week and I’m not quiet sure what to do get. Don’t wanna spend a ton, but want good results. Any help or advise is appreciated.

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nozeitgeist1800

i replaced my rear shock with the ktech razor r lite, it is such an improvement that the only reason ill still upgrade the front is because i had already purchased the spring set. totally worth the money imo

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I agree with @nozeitgeist1800, replacing the rear shock will make a huge difference.  I did not feel I needed to replace the front suspension after fitting a new shock (I did anyway, but mostly because I had already ordered the parts).  

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I happen to be eyeing the same thing, after finishing my 2nd track day last week and looking forward to many more track days next season. 

Is the rear shock something a "rookie" mechanic can do? I've done all my own work on my bike so far...frame sliders, swingarm spools, fork sliders, tail tidy, bar-end mirrors, frame sliders, oil change, etc. So nothing major that I've tackled yet, but I'm not completely mechanically inept. 

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cornerslider

As long as you have a way to support the rear end of the bike (not the rear spools). You can hang straps from the ceiling, or a ladder. I have aftermarket rearsets, and put jack stands under them. Once the rear end of the bike is supported, it is literal two bolts that get pulled (at the top & bottom of the shock). The FZ/MT 07 is probably the easies bike to swap a shock on that I've ever owned-

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""W.O.T. until you see god, then brake"

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That’s for the input! I’m leaning towards the ktech for sure. I’m pretty mechanically inclined so I’ll do the work myself for the rear. Has anyone used progressive? Or is ktech just far better anyway? Those front fork cartridges are $900, ouch!

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M. Hausknecht

Fork cartridges replace all of the fork internals so, yeah, they aren't cheap. I'm not familiar with the Progressive cartridges (I have Ohlins NIX 22 cartridges) but I didn't see any reference to adjustable damping. Seems odd not to reference adjustable damping; if they don't have adjustable rebound and compression damping I wouldn't even spend half what they cost. There are better options.

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I wasn't aware that Progressive was ordering fork cartridge kits for these bikes. Had to look em up and glad I did. 

It's going to be very hard to beat $390 for a set of fork cartridges. Especially since that price includes springs! 

 

Screenshot_20221001-091547.thumb.png.92c708a29a01bac0775014c97956e868.png 

 

The monotube made was curious to me. Seems what they've done is actually mounted a gas charged "shock absorber" inside the forks rather than the traditional valving in an oil bath. You'll still need oil to lubricate the fork bushings, of course. But as the fork oil didn't interact with the sealed gas tube I am assuming this means you won't be able to play with oil viscosity if your aren't happy with the results right out of the box. This approach will also prevent the fork valving from beating up you oil as the bushings alone really don't work the oil very hard. It says they come with springs,  so hopefully they have a variety of options to tailor springs to your weight and not just a "light" or "heavy duty" option that Progressive used to be known for. 

 

I think these are SUPER interesting. For the money it looks like a very affordable option. Sure, they lack external adjustability ( it seems?) , but I never once played with the clickers on my Ohlins cartridges. If I were setting up another 07, and the spring rate options suited me....for $390? I think I'd have to give these a try. 

I really like the out-of-the-box design with the sealed gas charged tube for a commuter. Fork oil service intervals would be greatly reduced. You could likely go years on a fork service. As someone who hates wastefulness, I really like this approach. But it'd also be my main concern. If the gas charged portion fails, are they serviceable or rebuildable? Or do you throw em away like a pair of worn out shocks and replace them?  One replacement would drive the cost up to Ohlins territory and negate any reasons to pursue this option. 

 

Screenshot_20221001-091628.thumb.png.4987c75be3969efa2dc983c7b5d13baf.png

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Yeah I don’t know. I mean the entry cost is why I was so interested in progressive. And what’s in stock. The nix kit doesn’t seem to be in stock anywhere. 

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nozeitgeist1800
On 10/1/2022 at 4:42 PM, shinyribs said:

I wasn't aware that Progressive was ordering fork cartridge kits for these bikes. Had to look em up and glad I did. 

It's going to be very hard to beat $390 for a set of fork cartridges. Especially since that price includes springs! 

 

Screenshot_20221001-091547.thumb.png.92c708a29a01bac0775014c97956e868.png 

 

The monotube made was curious to me. Seems what they've done is actually mounted a gas charged "shock absorber" inside the forks rather than the traditional valving in an oil bath. You'll still need oil to lubricate the fork bushings, of course. But as the fork oil didn't interact with the sealed gas tube I am assuming this means you won't be able to play with oil viscosity if your aren't happy with the results right out of the box. This approach will also prevent the fork valving from beating up you oil as the bushings alone really don't work the oil very hard. It says they come with springs,  so hopefully they have a variety of options to tailor springs to your weight and not just a "light" or "heavy duty" option that Progressive used to be known for. 

 

I think these are SUPER interesting. For the money it looks like a very affordable option. Sure, they lack external adjustability ( it seems?) , but I never once played with the clickers on my Ohlins cartridges. If I were setting up another 07, and the spring rate options suited me....for $390? I think I'd have to give these a try. 

I really like the out-of-the-box design with the sealed gas charged tube for a commuter. Fork oil service intervals would be greatly reduced. You could likely go years on a fork service. As someone who hates wastefulness, I really like this approach. But it'd also be my main concern. If the gas charged portion fails, are they serviceable or rebuildable? Or do you throw em away like a pair of worn out shocks and replace them?  One replacement would drive the cost up to Ohlins territory and negate any reasons to pursue this option. 

 

Screenshot_20221001-091628.thumb.png.4987c75be3969efa2dc983c7b5d13baf.png

these are very interesting, especially at the price point. ive got the ohlins fsk108 spring / preload adjusters kit but i may look at this more. ill probably call them and ask about whether the lifetime warranty covers the gas portion or what the options are in the event of a failure

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6 hours ago, nozeitgeist1800 said:

these are very interesting, especially at the price point. ive got the ohlins fsk108 spring / preload adjusters kit but i may look at this more. ill probably call them and ask about whether the lifetime warranty covers the gas portion or what the options are in the event of a failure

Definitely interesting - keep us posted on whatever you hear back. I see they also make a rear shock and I'm wondering where that stacks up against something like a K Tech Razor R Lite for the price.

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nozeitgeist1800

finally got around to calling them today, spoke with one of their sales guys. dude says the entire kit is covered against failure, gas chamber included. they said they dont expect service to be needed, which made it sound like it is not possible for most shops to service them but if there is a failure it shouldnt need to be serviced, just rma'ed. they also said that the only thing needed maintenance-wise is to change out the fork oil at the normal suggested intervals. dude mentioned hed seen them run for 75000 miles with no issues, but whether thats a sales pitch or an actual example... who knows. 

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Well, the OEM gas shocks on my '01 Duramax went 320,000 miles without needing replacement. Many bikes with sealed oil/gas shocks go decades and untold miles without replacement. I wouldn't be surprised that they would last that long, especially since they live in an environment where UV and dust can never attack the seals. 

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M. Hausknecht

The gas charged cartridges don't concern me; the absence of adjustable rebound damping does. Although you get suitable springs for your weight, there is no indication that rebound damping is adjusted accordingly. Putting aside rider preference (some riders like softer or stiffer springs than their weight would suggest), stiffer springs require more rebound damping and softer springs less. At least with the Race Tech emulators you can adjust your compression and rebound damping independently (at about half the cost of the Progressive units). With the Progressive units you can change fork oil weight to change damping, but that changes both rebound and compression damping, same as the stock forks.

I also didn't see provision for changing fork spring preload. Can that be so? Although with correct springs preload as constructed should be close enough to be safe, again, personal preference often dictates more or less preload for riders of equivalent weight.

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nozeitgeist1800
On 10/7/2022 at 6:01 PM, M. Hausknecht said:

With the Progressive units you can change fork oil weight to change damping, but that changes both rebound and compression damping, same as the stock forks.

 

please, correct me if im wrong, but i got the impression that changing the oil weight wouldnt have too much of an effect on damping. they say that the fork oil in there is just for lubrication, not intended to provide pressure or resistance. in fact, i think they only want you to put in like 200ml at most, just enough to make the parts move right, and they actively discourage from changing viscosity/weight or the fork oil.

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Just now, nozeitgeist1800 said:

please, correct me if im wrong, but i got the impression that changing the oil weight wouldnt have too much of an effect on damping. they say that the fork oil in there is just for lubrication, not intended to provide pressure or resistance. in fact, i think they only want you to put in like 200ml at most, just enough to make the parts move right, and they actively discourage from changing viscosity/weight or the fork oil.

Not a Fork person what so ever.

But in Theory,  Fork oil (like Hydraulic Fluid)  does NOT compress. So the Fork Oil is to transition between the two locations (upper \ lower). That transition Compression or Rarefaction is impacted based on the weight of the oil and other physical things.

I may have misunderstood with the explanation of how forks, shocks, struts. etc work

2022 Yamaha MT-07 Cyan Storm, 2005 Kawasaki Vulcan 2000 [VN2000A], 1997 Yamaha YZF600R - Thundercat [project]

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M. Hausknecht
Just now, nozeitgeist1800 said:

please, correct me if im wrong, but i got the impression that changing the oil weight wouldnt have too much of an effect on damping. they say that the fork oil in there is just for lubrication, not intended to provide pressure or resistance. in fact, i think they only want you to put in like 200ml at most, just enough to make the parts move right, and they actively discourage from changing viscosity/weight or the fork oil.

I think you're right; I'm wrong. I was looking at installation instructions for insight into whether the cartridges accommodate any adjustability, and mistakenly relied on instructions for something other than the fork cartridges. So, it turns out, I believe, that there is no way to adjust damping or spring preload. 

Their primary market appears to be big, heavy, cruiser bikes. I guess if you're riding a 700lb bike, adjustable suspension doesn't have quite the importance it has where the rider's weight is a more significant percentage of the total.

 

Edited by M. Hausknecht
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Just now, M. Hausknecht said:

So, it turns out, I believe, that there is no way to adjust damping or spring preload. 

Their primary market appears to be big, heavy, cruiser bikes

 

Is there a reason for aftermarket fork cartridges, if they lack adjustment for damping, preload, and compression ? What is the point, if they lack even simple sag settings capability for the rider? I must have missed the problem to be solved.

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Just now, Pursuvant said:

Is there a reason for aftermarket fork cartridges, if they lack adjustment for damping, preload, and compression ? 

As you know, the MT-07 has Damper Rod front suspension, as does the SV-650 and others with budget suspension. In theory, any cartridge based suspension will be better because on the harder bumps the "shims" in the cartridge will deflect, relieving pressure in a way that a damper rod fork cannot do.

That is explained in Racetech's suspension bible, and is the reason for their gold valves (which are a stepping stone to cartridge forks) https://www.racetech.com/page/title/emulators-how they work

Keep in mind that non-adjustable cartridge forks are found on the Triumph Trident (considered a better handling bike that a stock MT-07) and the recently announced Honda Hornet 750 has inverted big-piston front forks (that are borrowed from the Honda CB 650R) that are non-adjustable. 

https://www.cycleworld.com/story/bikes/honda-cb750-hornet-first-look-2023/

 

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Just now, Lone Wolf said:

...any cartridge based suspension will be better because on the harder bumps the "shims" in the cartridge will deflect, relieving pressure in a way that a damper rod fork cannot

That is explained in Racetech's suspension bible, and is the reason for their gold valves (which are a stepping stone to cartridge forks)

For as long as I recall you have posted clear, direct logic & resources, that always makes the point. You are part of a really sizable group of the best thinkers we have on this sight.... great people, that I look to when I need help. Very much appreciated 

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Thanks - I am no expert but a pretty good student.

12 hours ago, Pursuvant said:

... if they lack adjustment for damping, preload, and compression ? What is the point, if they lack even simple sag settings capability for the rider?

As others have said, suspension is basically springs and hydraulics. Let's talk about adjustments.
SPRINGS

If you go camping with a passenger, tent, food - suddenly you added 200 lbs and the perfect spring is no longer adequate. Preload adjustment can keep suspension in the sweet spot and prevent bottoming out.

HYDRAULICS - OIL

I have the hard copy of "The Suspension Bible" (Racetech) that goes pretty deep. I went to sleep reading it. My "Ah-ha" moment came from reading a 17 page Penske document that I will link to below.

  • As the shaft velocities increase, the same amount of fluid must pass through the low speed bleed orifice, but at a much higher rate. The viscosity of the fluid causes a greater resistance to flow at the orifice entrance...
  • The other major internal components, namely the piston and shim cage, are designed to handle this extra force by allowing the shims to “blow off” proportionally to the extra force generated...

Some hydraulic adjustments control the size of an orifice - by making turns or "clicks" on a needle that opens or closes like your faucet at the kitchen sink.

Penske talks about ADJUSTMENTS in their shock that can control when the shims “blow off” the pressure.  So it's not simply controlling an orifice, it has some control of the shims (without taking things apart and changing out the shims). On the track you don't want it to be  mushy. You may want a softer setting for street riding, because the lower speeds make the track setting feel "like a brick"

NON-ADJUSTABLE SUSPENSION

As suspension goes up in price, we get rebound adjustment. Budget shocks will just have "preload" for the rear, and often nothing for the front. Rebound is often described as "fast or slow". If the rebound is too fast, you hit a bump and the force of the spring coming back pushes you out of the seat.  Like a pogo stick with a spring, but no hydraulics at all.

If the rebound is too slow, the first bump may be OK but a series of bumps causes the suspension to "pack down" because it hasn't had a chance to recover and extend back out.

Compression adjustment is the next step up - but if the suspension is designed really well and with quality components is focused for the intended use - it may work well out of the box.

The K-Tech Suspension Razor-R Lite Rear Shock is an example where most people love the shock for MT-07 with only rebound and preload adjustment.

The front forks on the Triumph Trident get a lot of praise for the way they are set up (non adjustable) yet the non adjustable Showa Separate Function Fork Big Piston front forks on the 2022 Honda CB650R are considered too firm by reviews.

REFERENCES

This Penske page 


We offer resources to assist you including manuals, parts diagram, tech sheets, racing shock specs, service...

 

has a link to the 17 page download I was referring to. The URL doesn't say "penske" but it is legit

https://f.hubspotusercontent00.net/hubfs/8000307/Resources/Manuals/mc-tuning-guide.pdf

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On 10/1/2022 at 4:10 AM, MTbrett7 said:

That’s for the input! I’m leaning towards the ktech for sure. I’m pretty mechanically inclined so I’ll do the work myself for the rear. Has anyone used progressive? Or is ktech just far better anyway? Those front fork cartridges are $900, ouch!

Don't let my poorly informed post on adjustability be a turn off - I am just plain wrong. If @shinyribs and @Lone Wolf like  Progressive, follow those smart guys and the others who are pro Progressive blow my comments off

 

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I have no experience with the Progressive cartridge kit - only that it is improved technology compared to the stock "Damper rod" front suspension. 

The price is very low compared to some other choices, so hopefully they provide a good bang for the buck.

As for the rear shock, I am curious who ordered where, and if there was a selection other than your weight (below is Revzilla K-tech Razor-R Lite Rear Shock which only has you select your weight)

I have read about some ordering through Traxxion dynamics and getting the shock set up for them - but I don't know if that is just getting the right spring for their weight, or something deeper (like street vs track use).

ktech.jpg

Edited by Lone Wolf
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M. Hausknecht
Just now, Lone Wolf said:

I have no experience with the Progressive cartridge kit - only that it is improved technology compared to the stock "Damper rod" front suspension. 

The price is very low compared to some other choices, so hopefully they provide a good bang for the buck.

As for the rear shock, I am curious who ordered where, and if there was a selection other than your weight (below is Revzilla K-tech Razor-R Lite Rear Shock which only has you select your weight)

I have read about some ordering through Traxxion dynamics and getting the shock set up for them - but I don't know if that is just getting the right spring for their weight, or something deeper (like street vs track use).

ktech.jpg

On their website, Traxxion Dynamics only lists Penske shocks for the 07. I bought a Penske shock from Max years ago and it was no extra charge for them to adjust the shimming for my weight, spring, and personal preferences. I imagine that is still their practice with the Penske units. 

@Pursuvant, FWIW , I haven't seen nor heard of anyone advocating for the Progressive units. Irrespective of their quality (or lack thereof), the absence of any adjustability is a killer for me, even on a street bike. I have Race Tech Gold Valves in my 22 year old Honda Blackbird that took a few tries to get them right for  my preferences but have been trouble-free since.

 

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nozeitgeist1800
Just now, M. Hausknecht said:

@Pursuvant, FWIW , I haven't seen nor heard of anyone advocating for the Progressive units.

 

i also havent seen any negative reviews or anything, for them, and people are usually pretty quick to review when they arent happy with their experiences. ive seen a bunch of stuff about them on other bikes, mostly along the lines of "you can do better, but not without spending a bunch more". 

ill be very interested to see a comparison if/when someone decides to try them out.

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