Euro 5

[Lone Wolf]

Over the years, emissions controls have not been kind to motorcycles. Some models can't comply and get discontinued, others get fueling changes that cause abrupt on-off throttle, excessive engine braking, and rideability issues.

I have been alert for issues with Euro 5 effects on MT-07 and haven't really heard of any complaints - so thought I would open up a conversation. We could consider "non public road" topics such as ECU modifications and exhaust changes. 

Here's an article by Honda, at the end they say "Euro-5 also covers misfire detection, meaning more sensors are required to pick up any misfires." 
https://www.honda.co.uk/engineroom/bikes/euro-5-explained/#:~:text=The new Euro-5 limits,categories such as trials bikes.

The people that flash the ECU have a disclaimer such as "This product is intended for closed-course competition use only". There was some initial delay as they worked with Euro 5, which has been resolved.

Starting in 2021 the MT-07 Euro 5 reviews made comments such as: 

Inside the engine bay, the same 689cc CP2 parallel-Twin with uneven firing order remains, but with subtle changes. There’s a revised air intake duct design and optimized fuel-injection settings, as well as a new 2-into-1 exhaust with the collector routed much closer to the exhaust port for more efficient expelling and burning of the spent gasses. This is topped with a new ECU. Inside the engine you’ll find new valve seats on the exhaust side and different cut angles for the dog gears in the transmission. The former helps with engine reliability while the latter improves shift feel.
https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/yamaha/2021-yamaha-mt-07-review.html

Every review I have seen on the Euro 5 MT-07 says that the changes are so minor that you won't notice them in terms of power and rideability. https://youtu.be/OWwL56OM5iM

I am curious now that more time has passed, if there may be more opinions on this.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Lone Wolf

[Subito]

An interesting query, I’ll be watching this thread to see what experiences others can share.

[Lone Wolf]

This video shows tuning Euro 5 MT-07 with comments on how re flash addresses the abrupt on-off throttle, excessive engine braking, and rideability issues. (of course some of those issues existed with previous Euro 4 models)

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Lone Wolf

[clinical]

Just conjecture, but I wouldn't be surprised if bikes got leaner.  Euro 5 reduced limits on 4 exhaust gasses, 3 of those are due to incomplete ignition.  Engine braking is definitely an emissions mitigation, but even euro 4 FZ-07s had significant engine braking, so I'm not sure if we can attribute that one to Euro 5 (although you could argue Yamaha saw euro 5 coming).  Some of those exhaust changes could be Euro 5 related (could affect catalyst temp for example), those valve changes could even be due to euro 5, but changes to timing would be more likely.  

You might be interested in this article.  It said that Euro 5 might bring more variable valve timing to bikes.  I think one of the BMW advs got variable valve timing post Euro 5...

P.S. Not euro 5 related, but it's good that Yamaha changed gear cut angles, I'm guessing that's to address the large amount of driveline lash that the MT-07 has.

Edited February 12, 2023 by clinical

[Lone Wolf]

That was a great article. 

“Compared to Euro 4, the emissions limits are much lower, so it's a considerable challenge for the manufacturers both in terms of meeting the legislation - and particular motorcycles have particular issues with it, some are easier than others - and also meeting it at a reasonable cost.

“The limits have gone down by about a third on average. It's different for each emissions type. It's not as big a jump as Euro 3 to Euro 4, however as you decrease these limits it just gets tougher and tougher to meet them as you run out of quick hits for reducing your emissions."

29 minutes ago, clinical said:

... but even euro 4 FZ-07s had significant engine braking, so I'm not sure if we can attribute that one to Euro 5 (although you could argue Yamaha saw euro 5 coming).  

I bet they did see it coming, the article you linked to says "Passed into law in early 2013, it set out a staged route to reduce bike emissions over a period of years."

The FZ-07 was first sold in 2014. 

For next year, the Suzuki is coming out with a very similar 270 degree twin of similar displacement (reported as a move to deal with emission standards). 

So that may be why we don't hear a lot of complaints about the Euro 5 compliant MT-07 (2021 on) because the original 2014 model was already on track to comply with the known changes in emission requirements, without too many changes.

There is the new exhaust, and ""Euro-5 also covers misfire detection, meaning more sensors are required to pick up any misfires." 

I am thinking that the "new valve seats on the exhaust side" is a solution to lean fueling.

I am kind of amazed at the silence in transition to Euro 5 for the MT-07, almost like it was nothing, and maybe that is the way it is.  The main reason I started this thread is to hear of any issues that the reporters aren't saying, because they often seem to act like advertisement for the manufacturer so they can take trips to exotic places and test ride motorcycles. This review came out with the Euro 5 model.

 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Lone Wolf

[clinical]

Hadn't heard about the Suzuki twin.  That new "Thermo Valve" on the Suzuki engine has emission control written all over it.  The Yamaha 2 into 1 exhaust could signal that they switched to a 2 stage catalyst system (like Suzuki mentioned), and added a catalytic converter right there in the "manifold" (cars have been that way for > 20 years).  

It's actually pretty interesting to read that Suzuki press release and compare it to what Yamaha is currently doing.  Like you said, lots of similarities between the two.

Edit: Agree about reviewers.

Edit2: In that review you posted he mentioned extra catalyst @ 2:53

Edited February 13, 2023 by clinical

[Lone Wolf]

So if you folks were looking to buy a MT-07 today, ignoring appearance, ignoring the headlight (love it or hate it), ignoring the color, would you be more interested in this LOW MILE Euro 4 model, or a "brand new" Euro 5 model?

a BMW dealer within driving distance has a garage queen with Shad cases, 320 miles on a 2020 model. Don't know the story, if a rich dude changed his mind and traded it in, or what.

What if the price was = to current model and not include the Shad cases?
Who would buy the 2020, who would buy the current year and why?

 

[clinical]

I'd pipe and tune any bike I got, so the difference between euro 4 and 5 for me is nothing.  Price is what would be the driving factor for me.  If I were to keep things stock, I'd prefer the euro 4 because it will be simpler with fewer emissions systems (also the new 2-1 exhaust looks pretty ugly IMO).

Edited February 13, 2023 by clinical

[wollerms]

I agree with Clinical as I pitch the stock exhaust and reflash the ECU on any bike I buy. That bike in the ad has other added items that makes me wonder why only 320 miles and traded in. Ad (see below) says clutch and looks to have a center stand....me I would buy new that way I know it's history. 

 

Description

Stock # A001632  320 Miles

2020 Yamaha MT-07,

2020 YAMAHA MT-07 WITH ONLY 321 MILES AND IN EXCELLENT CONDITION. THE BIKE IS EQUIPPED WITH A REKLUSE CLUTCH, SADDLEBAGS AND CENTERSTAND. THE BIKE HAS BEEN SERVICED AND IS READY FOR A NEW HOME.

START YOUR NEW YEAR WITH A LITTLE FUN!!!!

[Lone Wolf]

53 minutes ago, clinical said:

I'd pipe and tune any bike I got, so the difference between euro 4 and 5 for me is nothing. 

Awesome, that is comforting that the basic bones of the MT-07 are unshaken.

As you mentioned previously, BMW has introduced models with Variable Valve Timing and Cycle World mentions "In general, whatever improves mixing and combustion can also be useful in meeting ever-tougher emissions standards."

Harley is really struggling with emission controls. If you do a search "Harley overheat" it is a real issue and this video explains why (emission compliance) and that Harley is not being transparent about the issues. I had an old 1950 Harley many years ago, and 2 sportsters (pre-emissions) and they were agricultural, and simple. I would not want a new one today.

One of the things I like about the Yamaha 07 is the simplicity. No ride-by-wire or baggage beyond what is needed. 

[Zephyr]

My impression of the ad bike is that some guy purchased and immediately set it up for what they thought would be their "ideal" touring bike.  Probably didn't consider the lack of wind protection and possibly over-estimated the 2-up capability and decided to trade in towards something else.  I would be interested in the ad bike over a new considering the mileage is so low and I like the mods, though I'm not familiar with Rekluse Clutch and why you might want that over the stock clutch.  I do not however like the color at all, so that would be a big hurdle.  If it was this bike "stock" versus a new 2021 model, then I'm going brand new all day. Euro 4 vs Euro 5 becomes irrelevant at that point.