Clutch issues after R7 slipper install

[Kurt]

I just got my bike buttoned back up after swapping in the slipper clutch from the R7, however while setting the free-play I immediately noticed that the clutch lever was quite stiff (I was expecting it to be lighter than stock or at least roughly the same). After setting the free-play I started it up and it stalled as soon as I shifted to first. I am trying to figure out what the issue could be, I am assuming I did something wrong obviously but I am hoping I can fix it without draining all the fluids and pulling the cover off, here is a rundown of the potential tripping points I can think of:
 

• I used a parts diagram off revzilla for the R7 clutch in order to get the discs and plates installed in what I believe is the correct order. (including the 2 rings that go in before the discs)
• I have done car clutches before but this is my first bike clutch, I was not sure if there was a front and back to any of the discs/plates but I installed all the plates with the straight edge facing the engine and the beveled edge facing outwards.
• The entire stack measured exactly 33.5mm using all the normal width plates, not the skinnier or thicker ones.
• I coated each plate and each disc in oil as I installed them.
• Potential issue: I ordered the wrong number of bolts for "pressure plate" (pn: B90-16352-00-00) the plate that fits over the springs and compresses everything together, so the bike then sat for about a full 24 hours before I finished assembly, could the oil I put on the discs have dripped off enough to affect things at this point?
• The final disc was installed offset from the rest.
• Torqued the bolts on the aforementioned pressure plate to 7.4ft-lbs.
• I set the clutch arm properly (I think) with the cable installed such that the arrow on the clutch cover and the dimple on the arm are aligned when under tension from the clutch.

Is there anything I could have missed? Is there anything I can check before pulling the cover off? Also, anything in particular I should be looking for once I get it apart?

 

[DewMan]

sorry to hear you're having issues.
 

Lets start with the basics... Can you confirm that the side stand switch and the clutch lever switch are working? Either one could cause it to stall when shifting into 1st.

When you shift it into 1st gear I assume the side stand is up and the clutch lever is pulled in? 

When you pull in on the clutch lever do you feel it compress the springs as you did prior to the slipper installation?

basic questions I know but when trouble-shooting we don't want to assume the basics without confirmation.

[Kurt]

1 minute ago, DewMan said:

sorry to hear you're having issues.
 

Lets start with the basics... Can you confirm that the side stand switch and the clutch lever switch are working? Either one could cause it to stall when shifting into 1st.

When you shift it into 1st gear I assume the side stand is up and the clutch lever is pulled in? 

When you pull in on the clutch lever do you feel it compress the springs as you did prior to the slipper installation?

basic questions I know but when trouble-shooting we don't want to assume the basics without confirmation.

Both side stand and switch are good, side stand up and clutch was pulled in, basically ready to take off but as soon as I shifted to first the bike stalled with a lurch and a thunk.

As far as feeling the springs compress its hard to say exactly what I feel. The clutch lever does move the arm at the clutch cover, BUT it is very firm and it doesn't feel as "progressive" as the stock clutch felt. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if only a little of what I am currently feeling is spring compression and there is some combination of "flex" coming from other sources: clutch arm, cable, etc.

The main reason I say that is simply because the clutch doesn't seem to do anything right now: with the clutch fully pulled in, I have to roll the bike to change gear and moving the bike is extremely difficult and I can hear the engine turning over (one of the first things I tried after realizing I had an issue was rocking the bike back and forth in 6th in the off chance I could losing up the discs that way).

[shinyribs]

It sounds like your clutch arm is off somehow. They can make the pull at the lever really soft if not engaging enough, or really stiff if trying to over-engage. These clutch arm assemblies are pretty fiddly to deal with. It's very difficult to get everything lined up properly while putting the cover back on. The easiest way for me is to remove that snap ring and take the cable attachment arm off of the splined shaft. That way, it doesn't matter how the shaft rotates when putting the cover on- let those gears on the other end land wherever they land. Then reattach the arm later in wherever orientation you need. I have found the dot and the notch on the cover to be very useful. 

 

Definitely sounds like the clutch isn't releasing for whatever reason. A likely culprit ( I've done it more times than I care to admit) is the spacer washer on the back side of the clutch basket. Nearly all bikes use a spacer there. When you remove the basket the spacer nearly always sticks to the basket with oil. Without that spacer the basket will bind up in the bike and cause instant stalling like you described. Very annoying, very common thing to miss. 

You're good on the oil on the clutch plates. If there's any oil residue at all it's plenty. Don't have to worry about that. And don't worry about the clutch pull until you get everything running and working properly. It won't get much lighter after initial install. Once you start the bike and squeeze the lever a few times things will start feeling much better. Needs to settle in to position, I guess? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kurt]

2 hours ago, shinyribs said:

It sounds like your clutch arm is off somehow. They can make the pull at the lever really soft if not engaging enough, or really stiff if trying to over-engage. These clutch arm assemblies are pretty fiddly to deal with. It's very difficult to get everything lined up properly while putting the cover back on. The easiest way for me is to remove that snap ring and take the cable attachment arm off of the splined shaft. That way, it doesn't matter how the shaft rotates when putting the cover on- let those gears on the other end land wherever they land. Then reattach the arm later in wherever orientation you need. I have found the dot and the notch on the cover to be very useful. 

 

Definitely sounds like the clutch isn't releasing for whatever reason. A likely culprit ( I've done it more times than I care to admit) is the spacer washer on the back side of the clutch basket. Nearly all bikes use a spacer there. When you remove the basket the spacer nearly always sticks to the basket with oil. Without that spacer the basket will bind up in the bike and cause instant stalling like you described. Very annoying, very common thing to miss. 

You're good on the oil on the clutch plates. If there's any oil residue at all it's plenty. Don't have to worry about that. And don't worry about the clutch pull until you get everything running and working properly. It won't get much lighter after initial install. Once you start the bike and squeeze the lever a few times things will start feeling much better. Needs to settle in to position, I guess? 

 

 

 

 

 

The clutch arm was my main thought too, it was definitely a pain in the ass to get back together. I ended up doing exactly what you said, I took the snap ring off, turned the splined rod fully counter-clockwise until it stopped, set the arm on so that it was under light spring tension which allowed me to rotate it clockwise by hand until it stops at which point the dot on the arm and the triangle on the clutch cover are more or less lined up. I am not sure if my technique is correct but doing it that way definitely results in the dot and triangle at least lining up as pictured in the service manual. 

I definitely wouldn't completely rule anything out at this point, but I am 99% sure that the spacer on the back of the clutch basket isn't my problem, I only say this because I followed @Evill_Ed's guide here and it specifically mentioned the same thing, mine was stuck to the back of the original basket, and I moved it over and distinctly remember that portion of the installation up to installing the beveled washer with the text "out" printed on it. It's looking like I'm going to have to crack it all open again though so I will definitely check it if I do.

[sweetscience]

I worked with this style of assist/slipper before.  Common thing overlooked and easy to miss is the large pressure plate is not seated or "clicked" onto place.  Referring to the large final main plate that covers the frictions and steels.  The one housing the pull rod bearing.  Ya gotta rotate it back and forth till you get that click. And it seats.   

[Kurt]

24 minutes ago, sweetscience said:

I worked with this style of assist/slipper before.  Common thing overlooked and easy to miss is the large pressure plate is not seated or "clicked" onto place.  Referring to the large final main plate that covers the frictions and steels.  The one housing the pull rod bearing.  Ya gotta rotate it back and forth till you get that click. And it seats.   

This is the outer piece with the "oval" shaped holes that the springs seat into right? It felt like everything was seated pretty well when I was originally assembling everything but I will definitely double check this, I just started draining all the fluids again, I don't have time to check it tonight but I will definitely look at this once I get everything taken apart later this week, thanks for the info.

[shinyribs]

You shouldn't need to drain any fluids. No coolant in that area and the oil will be down in the sump..

[sweetscience]

1 hour ago, Kurt said:

This is the outer piece with the "oval" shaped holes that the springs seat into right? It felt like everything was seated pretty well when I was originally assembling everything but I will definitely double check this, I just started draining all the fluids again, I don't have time to check it tonight but I will definitely look at this once I get everything taken apart later this week, thanks for the info.

Yep, that's the part.  Easy enough to check.  Just take your time removing and assembling the clutch springs.  Use quarter turns and alternating when fastening and loosening those spring bolts.  They easy to snap too.    

[sweetscience]

18 minutes ago, shinyribs said:

You shouldn't need to drain any fluids. No coolant in that area and the oil will be down in the sump..

At what angle do you reckon you need to lean the bike to not lose oil when removing the clutch cover?

[Kurt]

47 minutes ago, shinyribs said:

You shouldn't need to drain any fluids. No coolant in that area and the oil will be down in the sump..

Wish I would have seen this a couple hours ago, that said I saved everything in clean containers, added a bit of work for myself but no harm done.

 

 

30 minutes ago, sweetscience said:

Yep, that's the part.  Easy enough to check.  Just take your time removing and assembling the clutch springs.  Use quarter turns and alternating when fastening and loosening those spring bolts.  They easy to snap too.    

Got into it with a little bit of spare time after work- I think you were right with your initial suggestion but unfortunately, not only was it not properly seated, but I warped the very first clutch plate (the metal one, not the one with friction material), I am trying to decide if I should just re-order the entire kit in case that load damaged any of the other discs or if I should just re-order that single disc (1TD-16324-00-00). 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Kurt

[sweetscience]

Check for clutch plate warpage on flat glass table and feeler gauge.  With 0.15 mm or less should be good.  Could probably salvage some.

[Kurt]

5 minutes ago, sweetscience said:

Check for clutch plate warpage on flat glass table and feeler gauge.  With 0.15 mm or less should be good.  Could probably salvage some.

Unfortunately I don't have easy access to a surface I trust to be that flat. My concern is running into a stacking tolerance issue where each piece on its own seems like its ok but then I stack them all back together and hit an issue again.

Honestly if it was only an hour of my time and I could get the parts a little easier I'd just buy the 1 disc thats visibly and obviously warped, throw that in there and see if I get lucky, but with the way these parts seem to go in and out of stock I think I will just get the entire kit while I still can. The price difference only ends up working out to ~$100, which sucks but its not something I will lose any sleep over and I can take it as a learning experience, you can bet I'll never make that mistake again. Plus it will still have been cheaper than paying a mechanic to do it.

[Pursuvant]

Perhaps you want to look at the clutch supplemental tips here there may be something you need

[Kurt]

9 minutes ago, Pursuvant said:

Perhaps you want to look at the clutch supplemental tips here there may be something you need

Thanks for the link- I did end up finding that while researching and trying to troubleshoot my issue originally. The bright side of this is that it gives me the opportunity to orient the plates correctly with the sharp edge out. Originally I was under the impression that it was more important to just have them all facing the same direction and other than that it did not matter.

[shinyribs]

You are correct that the important thing is facing them all the same way is what's important, not which way they face. Since they're machine stamped/sheered they have a cup to them and you don't want those cups pointing in random directions. Been trying to tell people this for 20 years and constantly get laughed at and eyes rolled. 

 

I should've typed it on the internet or made a YouTube video. We believe everything on the internet

[shinyribs]

13 hours ago, Kurt said:

Wish I would have seen this a couple hours ago, that said I saved everything in clean containers, added a bit of work for myself but no harm done.

 

 

Got into it with a little bit of spare time after work- I think you were right with your initial suggestion but unfortunately, not only was it not properly seated, but I warped the very first clutch plate (the metal one, not the one with friction material), I am trying to decide if I should just re-order the entire kit in case that load damaged any of the other discs or if I should just re-order that single disc (1TD-16324-00-00). 

What do you think happened to the disc? If no other discs are bent I wouldn't spend money to replace them. 

Sounds like you're figuring it out. Good job, man

[Kurt]

5 hours ago, shinyribs said:

You are correct that the important thing is facing them all the same way is what's important, not which way they face. Since they're machine stamped/sheered they have a cup to them and you don't want those cups pointing in random directions. Been trying to tell people this for 20 years and constantly get laughed at and eyes rolled. 

 

I should've typed it on the internet or made a YouTube video. We believe everything on the internet

Yea there is so much noise its impossible to tell, I also saw people claiming its "commonly" taught to techs that they should always be sharp side out, while I agree with you and it seems like them all being the same is what really matters, this is an easy hedge and putting them all sharp side out satisfies both camps so I'm covered regardless. 

5 hours ago, shinyribs said:

What do you think happened to the disc? If no other discs are bent I wouldn't spend money to replace them. 

Sounds like you're figuring it out. Good job, man

The very last metal disc is the one that interfaces with the teeth on the pressure plate and it is slightly smaller than the rest. I think as I was putting it together it slipped out of place so that its teeth and the teeth of the pressure plate were applying pressure to each other rather than fitting together cleanly. So whole clutch instantly became too thick to ever have a chance of disengaging. Bolting it together out of place like I did caused the teeth of that disc to be pressed inward so now that disc is funnel shaped only slightly, but is clear even looking by eye.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Kurt

[Kurt]

Working on installing the replacement clutch pack today, it looks like I need to use one of the thinner plates as my total stack thickness seems to be around 32.6-32.7mm. However I am having a hard time determining which is the proper disc to replace it with in this postage stamp of a screenshot.

It looks to me like its the first plate AFTER the plate that interfaces with the pressure plate, is that correct?

[Kurt]

Final update, hopefully, it seems like my assumption in my last post was correct. I believe the cutaway diagram showing the location of the plate to replace to get the thickness correct shows, from left to right, 11 plates and friction discs that sit inside the basket followed by 2 others that sit "inside" the pressure plate, so 1 is the first plate after the the smaller one that interfaces with the pressure plate and 2 is just one further into the basket. I only needed to replace one and got the stack to be right about 33.2-33.4mm thick.

I installed this stack and before I buttoned it all up I decided to try to figure out what exactly went wrong the first time. I installed last disc and smaller plate onto the pressure plate, set it in place, and then simulated  trying to get it to notch into place just right by pulling it back out and trying to reset it to get it to slot into place. When I did this the oil provided just enough surface tension to keep the smaller disc stuck to the stack instead of the pressure plate, and when I pulled the pressure plate completely off to check I caught the tail end of it sliding down a couple millimeters. I think this is what happened the first time around and I didn't notice before bolting everything together and trying to shift into gear. Just want to put this out there incase it ends up happening to someone else, or better yet they can learn from me and prevent it from happening in the first place.

With that out of the way I just got back from my first proper test ride and this might be my favorite thing I've done to the bike. It almost completely removed the CLUNK you get when shifting into first, rolling on and off the throttle feels like it has gotten significantly easier to do smoothly, and downshifting is just buttery smooth, also the clutch lever is effortlessly light now. Absolutely a 10 out of 10.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Kurt

[Evill_Ed]

14 minutes ago, Kurt said:

With that out of the way I just got back from my first proper test ride and this might be my favorite thing I've done to the bike. It almost completely removed the CLUNK you get when shifting into first, rolling on and off the throttle feels like it has gotten significantly easier to do smoothly, and downshifting is just buttery smooth, also the clutch lever is effortlessly light now. Absolutely a 10 out of 10.

Sounds about right. Good to hear you got it sorted out. 

Ed

[Pursuvant]

6 hours ago, Kurt said:

...or better yet they can learn from me and prevent it from happening in the first place...

...this might be my favorite thing... Absolutely a 10 out of 10.

calling anyone who does this next, I will pin your "how to" to top of the mods if you take a little time and give the forum a parts list, pics at each major step, and a simple word description. I would do it, except I'm taking a pass on this mod.

[sweetscience]

Glad you highlighted the key takeaway here is to set the last 2 small steel and friction plates of the series onto the back of the main pressure plate BEFORE mating them to the rest of the clutch pack in the basket to ensure proper seating. 

How much engine braking did you lose with the slipper clutch?  

[shinyribs]

The differing types/sizes of plates can be confusing, but if you understand the reasons they're are there it becomes evident where to put them. 

 

The plated with the smaller inner diameter have to fit on each end of the stack. The smaller inner diameter makes room for the spring cushion rings ( Belleville washers) that sit in the very back of the stack. The remaining of the smaller inner diameter plates have to go on the outer layers of the stack because they interface with the different diameter of the working hub of the slipper. 

The Belleville washers are part of what makes the clutch so smooth. It cushions the closing of the clutch so it's not as snappy and less forgiving. The outer steel plate with the dimples, those dimples are also to cushion the closing of the clutch. It takes more time for oil to get out of those dimples compared to a smooth steel and those little oil pockets act as a cushion. 

This is along the lines of why we point all the steels in the same direction. Since they are cupped from being stamped, if we align all the cupping the clutch will behave normally. If the cupped plates are pointing in various directions they can't act like a series of Belleville washers and make the clutch real spongy feeling. 

 

[Kurt]

On 5/12/2023 at 9:10 PM, sweetscience said:

Glad you highlighted the key takeaway here is to set the last 2 small steel and friction plates of the series onto the back of the main pressure plate BEFORE mating them to the rest of the clutch pack in the basket to ensure proper seating. 

How much engine braking did you lose with the slipper clutch?  

It honestly feels about the same but I already had a tune that reduced it from stock, I just did a short ride though so I may amend this after I have more time with it.