Rough and Twitchy??

[Greg3]

Help. So far, my 2022 MT is a disappointment. After reading all the glowing reviews, I was expecting an easy-riding, zippy, fun bike.

What I'm experiencing is a really harsh ride, and very twitchy handling in anything but butter-smooth turns.

I'm 180 pounds with all gear, and I've changed over to K-Tech cartridges front and Razor shock in the rear. They configured them with 8.5 springs in the front and 110N in the rear. I've also installed the Yamaha Comfort seat.

On the highway, it's a nice ride. Maneuvering around town is easy-peasy. In smooth twisties, kinda nice. BUT... It's REALLY rough on back-country ripply asphalt. Even worse, it just won't hold a line in a turn. Any bump or waviness has it hunting back and forth, changing steering angle all on its own.

My other bikes are (as might be expected) more tame -- a DR650 and a Vstrom 650. But the Vstrom has only 1" more travel... but a vastly different ride. Both of those bikes track like they're on rails, on smooth OR uneven asphalt. All my previous bikes have been pretty well behaved too.

I'm starting to believe that I've got some sort of MT07 lemon, but I'm fairly mechanical and I can't come up with any ideas as to what might be boogering up the handling.

Any ideas and suggestions are welcome.

[Lone Wolf]

9 minutes ago, Greg3 said:

... I've changed over to K-Tech cartridges front and Razor shock in the rear. They configured them with 8.5 springs in the front and 110N in the rear.

I am assuming you rode the bike at least some before suspension change... Did you have all those issues with stock suspension as well?

[Greg3]

Yes, the problems were there from the get-go. I bought the bike used with 4000 miles.

It was always harsh to ride, and unstable turning on uneven roads.

One more thing I haven't mentioned: It needs constant steering pressure in the turns. It doesn't just counter-steer and stabilize like my other bikes... it tries to turn into the turn by itself. Less pronounced at higher speeds, but REALLY noticeable in the 25-35mph range. And of course, with pressure on the steering, any bouncing makes for wobbly steering. Frustrating.

[Subito]

FWIW, sounds like it could be steering head/triple clamp damage or fork tube misalignment (possibly caused by a crash by previous owner).

[Triple Jim]

There's a chance that the falling into turns is from tire wear, particularly the front tire.

[jjmaine]

Steering stem nut tension not adjusted properly or bad bearings?  I doubt 4,000 miles is enough to wear out the steering stem bearings but I just thought I would mention it.  I do know that the wrong tension on the steering stem bearings can cause all kinds of weird handling issues… 

[cornerslider]

As @Triple Jim mentioned, it could be as simple as the front tire, or even tire pressure. The other thing you could try is to rise the fork tubes 10mm in the triple clamps. Doing this drops the front end of the bike, and changes the steering angle (slightly). The bike will turn-in/corner better, but will lose a bit of stability at high speed. I race my FZ-07, and can't  feel any instability at top speed on a track.

It sounds like you had the cartridges professionally installed. Maybe the installer just set them at the "baseline" from K-Tech? Where I eventually ended up was a LONG way from the K-Tech baseline, but it felt right to ME. Setting up suspension properly isn't an easy task. Add to that, what feels "right" to one rider might feel horrible to another rider (of the same weight). It's a balancing act too...... When you change one thing, you lose in another.

It sounds like you are mostly disappointed on rough twisty roads? That might just be the road.... My FZ-07 (with K-Tech suspension) doesn't particularly like rough asphalt either. It's a trade-off, for how well it handles everything else. My best advise is find a stretch of road where the bike is struggling. Ride back and forth, and adjust the front end settings on the cartridges. This will help you learn what-does-what with the adjustments. Once you find what feels best to YOU, do the same with the rear. Good luck-

 

[M, Hausknecht]

The cartridges are intended for track use and they work very well, but rough and uneven pavement require different damping characteristics. Have you experimented much with the fork and shock damping adjustments? One extreme to the other makes a huge difference. The constant steering adjustments could be geometry-related. Are you using the stock size tires?

[Greg3]

Tires are Road 5 Michelins, about half-worn without any obvious "excess" areas. But the front could be "V-ed" and I probably couldn't tell.

Tire PRESSURES have a strong effect on turn-in. Placard pressure for this bike is 33/36. Lower pressures (30/33, 27/30) increase the turn-in tendency. But lower pressures also slightly lighten the road harshness. I'm told that Road 5's have a strong "V" profile, and of course the dual-compound rubber, which tend to increase turn-in. One guy told me that his Road 6's did NOT do this. But that might just be due to new tires.

I did the suspension installation myself, with a full set of proper tools, and I'm confident the cartridges/shock are installed correctly. Both fork tubes ran cleanly over the full length of travel, before and after installation. With zero damping, the forks "bounce" with no apparent binding. I've played with the damping a LOT, and I can easily tell when the damping is light or heavy by the way the bike swoops/wallows or doesn't. But oddly, the damping doesn't seem to affect the ride harshness that much. It's worth noting that the fork almost NEVER bottoms out. Most of the time, my tell-tale tie-wrap never comes closer than 30-40mm of bottom position.

These factors are what makes me suspect the the (recommended/shipped) spring rates are too stiff, for me and my roads anyway. Except for the damn turn-in problem, the bike does seem to be set up for track/racing... great for those riders, but I'm spending my time on the Santa Cruz Mountain roads. Delightful, but not always smooth.

This bike is often touted as a great bike for beginning riders. I just can't believe that a beginning rider would feel at ease with a bike that doesn't hold a line in a turn. So I'm not thinking that it's "just set up for track" and that's the problem. And all tracks aren't butter-smooth either -- how would a racer like it if his bike veered back and forth every time it hit an uneven part of the pavement? When you're riding at near-100%, a deviation like that could spit you off the track.

Presently, I'm looking at four choices: softer springs and/or softer seat (ride harshness), new tires (turn-in), sell the bike (tired of fighting it).

[Lone Wolf]

13 hours ago, Greg3 said:

...I bought the bike used with 4000 miles.

It was always harsh to ride, and unstable turning on uneven roads.

I know this sounds crazy, but if you go to Riders Share you will likely see several MT-07 available for rent wherever you live, and they tend to be a very affordable rental.

With all the money and effort you have put into this bike, I would be really curious how a bone-stock MT-07 picked at random would feel for a few days.

I experience none of the grief you are describing, and am kind of shocked yours is a 2022 model. The issues it is manifesting are more like an old beater.

With Riders Share, I talk to the owner of the bike I want to rent before I go there, make sure they have a garage, and ask if I can park my bike there while I rent theirs. I have done that 4 times over the last 2 years, rent a bike for 3 days to a week (liter bikes, whatever I want to try out - like a long demo ride).

"One more thing I haven't mentioned: It needs constant steering pressure in the turns. It doesn't just counter-steer and stabilize like my other bikes... it tries to turn into the turn by itself.  ... REALLY noticeable in the 25-35mph range. And of course, with pressure on the steering, any bouncing makes for wobbly steering. Frustrating."

Have you checked the rear wheel alignment? Not by the marks on swingarm, but with Motion Pro or other alignment tool?

Loosen triple clamps, ensure everything straight, re-tighen?

Edited October 8, 2023 by Lone Wolf

[jjmaine]

Have you been aboe to get the correct free sag and rider sag?  If so then the springs are fine.  I’m working on fine tuning a set of cartridges in my forks now and have learned a lot recently. 
 

If you want to get full travel out of your forks try increasing the air gap 10mm at a time (take some oil out of the forks).  I’m not sure what this does “technically” but I know that you will have more fork travel.

[Greg3]

46 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

....

Have you checked the rear wheel alignment? Not by the marks on swingarm, but with Motion Pro or other alignment tool?

Loosen triple clamps, ensure everything straight, re-tighen?

Double/triple-checked the tri-clamps, seems okay. ONLY checked rear wheel align by marks and by eyeball. I'll have to look into the tools available.

[Greg3]

38 minutes ago, jjmaine said:

Have you been aboe to get the correct free sag and rider sag?  If so then the springs are fine.  I’m working on fine tuning a set of cartridges in my forks now and have learned a lot recently. 
 

If you want to get full travel out of your forks try increasing the air gap 10mm at a time (take some oil out of the forks).  I’m not sure what this does “technically” but I know that you will have more fork travel.

The sag is definitely on the "too little" side, like 25mm or so front/rear. No pre-load front, 7mm pre-load rear. I'm working with K-tech on adjusting the suspension, still in progress. Of course, K-tech is not likely to be much help with the turn-in problem. We're focusing on the ride harshness.

Reducing the fluid level <increases> the air gap, and therefore reduces the air compression spring effect near the fully-compressed travel point. In other words, less fluid means less spring force at extreme compression. Ergo, easier/more travel.

I also have learned a lot lately -- but not yet "enough" <grin>.

[Lone Wolf]

18 minutes ago, Greg3 said:

ONLY checked rear wheel align by marks and by eyeball. I'll have to look into the tools available.

Swingarm marks on any motorcycle are usually just approximate.

The Motion Pro tool rod is kind of short, I use a long 1/8" drill bit. Harbor Freight sells long bits cheap, they also have a knock-off of the Motion Pro tool

Edited October 8, 2023 by Lone Wolf

[Greg3]

So that's billed as a "chain alignment" tool, but it actually does double-duty in aligning the rear wheel to the chassis.

But what happens if the rear sprocket is not EXACTLY space (laterally) correctly to the drive sprocket? This could happen with variances in spacers, cush drives, swing-arms, chassis/frame.

Worth a shot I guess... how much "error" have you seen in swing-arm markings?

[Lone Wolf]

45 minutes ago, Greg3 said:

So that's billed as a "chain alignment" tool, but it actually does double-duty in aligning the rear wheel to the chassis.

But what happens if the rear sprocket is not EXACTLY space (laterally) correctly to the drive sprocket? This could happen with variances in spacers, cush drives, swing-arms, chassis/frame.

If you think about it, any motorcycle engine & transmission is going to be square to the frame. It is not going to be off by a few degrees.

You don't want the sprockets out of line, or it will cause wear. This is basically your "north star", your rudder in the water. If the sprockets are in line, the rear wheel is going to be in line.

45 minutes ago, Greg3 said:

But what happens if the rear sprocket is not EXACTLY space (laterally) correctly to the drive sprocket? This could happen with variances in spacers, cush drives, swing-arms, chassis/frame.

One of my motorcycles had an old forum where a guy put his wheel back on after tire change. The spacers where not equal length, and he swapped them so the rear wheel was about 1/2" off center (that would be very obvious even sighting it by eye - but most people don't look at that every time).

The guy was bitching about "strange handling" and issues gunning it (wobble) and hard braking.

Days later he found his mistake. Other than these issues, you can pretty much trust that a bike that has thousands of them on the road that it was designed with basic parts where they need to be (but can be screwed up by axle alignment - chain adjustment)

45 minutes ago, Greg3 said:

... how much "error" have you seen in swing-arm markings?

There is a thread on the MT-09 forum right now where a guy bought a BRAND NEW 2023 model from the dealership.

It had a high speed wobble, and the culprit turned out to be rear axle set to the markings by dealer, but it was off by 3mm which doesn't sound like much at the axle but when you look at the effect to the overall wheelbase it was enough to cause trouble.

It is a common enough problem that some people get aftermarket adjusters, or make marks on the stock ones once it is properly aligned so they have a point of reference with every tire change (adjusting the chain tension you can just count turns on the nut)

Edited October 8, 2023 by Lone Wolf

[sweetscience]

Yeah, when I squared my wheel with a Motion pro or a laser, turns out the right axle adjuster is a notch shorter than the left.  

[jjmaine]

Same here Greg, still learning and trying to solve my “harshness” problem with the Andreani cartridges.  At least after reading the reviews I kind of expected to have the issue.  Hopefully you get your bike sorted out!

[jjmaine]

2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Swingarm marks on any motorcycle are usually just approximate.

The Motion Pro tool rod is kind of short, I use a long 1/8" drill bit. Harbor Freight sells long bits cheap, they also have a knock-off of the Motion Pro tool

I use this tool and never thought of this, thanks!  

[Greg3]

Sunday update...

I raised my forks 10mm in the tri-clamps today; it's an often-mentioned tweak, by Dave Moss and others. It was <interesting>. There's still a lot of turn-in with my temporarily low tire pressures (27/30), but the instability is MUCH reduced. Even bumpy turns track straighter now. Gonna have to go back to standard pressure (33/36) and see what it feels like.

(Dang, if I keep it this way I'm going to have to shorten the kickstand.)

I also found that the chain was super-tight. I <thought> I had checked this, but oh well; fixed it. Bumps seem not quite so harsh now, but it's hard to tell, so no solid conclusions.

[cornerslider]

18 minutes ago, Greg3 said:

Sunday update...

I raised my forks 10mm in the tri-clamps today; it's an often-mentioned tweak, by Dave Moss and others. It was <interesting>. There's still a lot of turn-in with my temporarily low tire pressures (27/30), but the instability is MUCH reduced. Even bumpy turns track straighter now. Gonna have to go back to standard pressure (33/36) and see what it feels like.

(Dang, if I keep it this way I'm going to have to shorten the kickstand.)

I also found that the chain was super-tight. I <thought> I had checked this, but oh well; fixed it. Bumps seem not quite so harsh now, but it's hard to tell, so no solid conclusions.

I'm happy that my suggestion was tried/tested, and brought you some success/improvement.... I didn't get that from  "Dave Moss" . I think that clown did a brilliant of marketing himself into the YouTube sensation that he currently is. If he was half as good as he thinks he is, race teams would be lining up to hire him.... Instead, he's on YouTube- scaring people into believing that Yamaha has a "fatal flaw" with its forks. You have a nicely equipped bike. Once it's suspension is properly set-up, I think you will be happy with the results-

[M, Hausknecht]

12 hours ago, cornerslider said:

I'm happy that my suggestion was tried/tested, and brought you some success/improvement.... I didn't get that from  "Dave Moss" . I think that clown did a brilliant of marketing himself into the YouTube sensation that he currently is. If he was half as good as he thinks he is, race teams would be lining up to hire him.... Instead, he's on YouTube- scaring people into believing that Yamaha has a "fatal flaw" with its forks. You have a nicely equipped bike. Once it's suspension is properly set-up, I think you will be happy with the results-

I love your Dave Moss rants.

[Greg3]

14 hours ago, cornerslider said:

I didn't get that from  "Dave Moss" . I think that clown did a brilliant of marketing himself 

 I have no illusions about how wonderful Dave Moss is. But <some> folks think he's an "authority". Whatever... I have seen the "10mm tweak" mentioned in other contexts, and it's easy to implement or reverse, so I thought I'd try it out. Definitely had an effect; I'll test-ride again today at nominal tire pressures and see what I think.

The puzzling thing about moving the forks up 10mm is that it of course <decreases> rake and trail, and one would think that such a change would make the bike more skittish.

[klx678]

thought on chain adjustment, measure from swing arm pivot to axle, matching reading on left and right, don't trust the adjuster markers on the bikes.  That's taking for granted that the frame is not bent or built incorrectly.  I read about it in an off road magazine decades ago.   No way one could trust those old chain adjusters on most bikes.

[Greg3]

On 10/9/2023 at 9:32 AM, klx678 said:

thought on chain adjustment, measure from swing arm pivot to axle, matching reading on left and right, don't trust the adjuster markers on the bikes.  That's taking for granted that the frame is not bent or built incorrectly.  I read about it in an off road magazine decades ago.   No way one could trust those old chain adjusters on most bikes.

I don't have an accurate way of measuring the centers of the axles and swing-arm pivots. So I used a chain alignment tool.

WOW. One entire division off between left and right swing-arm markings (about 1mm). Gonna take a test ride soon and I'll report any differences. All I'm expecting is to have the forks pointing more evenly... they've been very slightly cocked to the right for a while now.