Rough and Twitchy??

[cornerslider]

I just re-read your original post.... I'm a bit confused? You mention the bike was twitchy, and wouldn't hold a line on a bumpy corner. Those are two very different problems (to me). If it won't hold a line in a corner, that's one thing. If it's twitchy, that is something completely different. To correct each of those actions, requires actions that counteract each other.

You mentioned your other bikes that handle better. Both those bikes have a MUCH softer suspension, and will offer a much more "plush" riding experience. The K-Tech suspension you upgraded to is designed for track use, and probably won't give you a "plush" ride. It will perform better the harder you ride it. I would reach out to K-Tech, and ask them for help. Their customer service is very good. You "may" be able to achieve what you are looking for with softer springs. I'm NOT a suspension expert, but K-Tech is!!! I'd lean on them... Good luck-

[Greg3]

@cornerslider, you're absolutely correct, and I'm afraid I've mixed some gripes and created a bit of confusion. Thank you for your thoughts and comments.

Yes, my other bikes have more-plush rides, and I'm trying to "be fair". My Vstrom, for example, has more weight and 1" more suspension travel than the MT07... I'd expect a firmer ride, but not one that throws me off the seat, and/or disturbs the steering angle in a turn.

Yes, K-tech support is wonderful. I'm in a continuing conversation with Burch W., and we're going to try lighter springs in the forks... maybe in the shock as well, later on.

The other thing -- should be a different thread, probably -- is the very strong tendency of the bike to "pull into" a turn. I think this is called "turn-in", but I'm not sure. This happens really strongly at low speeds, and it's far worse at low tire pressures. With higher front pressure (33+), or with higher speeds (45mph+), the pulling-in changes gradually to "pushing out". In other words, the bike wants to increase its turning rate at low speeds, and straighten out at high speeds. This is part of what I meant by "twitchy". The bike literally requires constant force on the handlebars, in turns, at most speeds; something my other bikes do not require. So if a turn is uneven or lumpy, it's impossible NOT to vary the force on the bars, and the bike changes its steering angle. Hard to describe, and super annoying if not outright dangerous. I've heard that the Road 5's can cause aggressive turn-in, but nobody gripes about it; it's just an idiosyncrasy it seems. I've thought about trying Road 6's or Dunlop Roadsmarts, or something else. A $500 experiment... Hmmmm.

It has occurred to me that it might be "just me". I'm an older guy (76), and have never raced street motorcycles (just cars and dirt bikes). The MT07 is clearly set up like a track bike, very fast handling, short wheelbase, steep rake, short trail. Maybe this kind of configuration just ain't for me. I'm still trying to sort it all out, and along the way I'm learning a lot, and thinking about what other kinds of bikes to try out. 

Thanks again for any thoughts or suggestions.

[Paulb5950]

So strange. I also have a 22 with some mods done to mine. 

Unfortunately I'm still on stock suspension, but my experience is the opposite. It's super sloppy and loose. I generally like a stiffer more precise ride, and the OEM (for me) just constantly feels mushy. 

With that out of the way, what I can say is the road 5s definitely have a more V shape to them. I personally prefer that most the time, however I hated the road 5s. Maybe its the soft suspension in stock form + me being a bit heavier for this bike (240lb's)... But the road 5s I felt didn't have great feedback and I oftentimes couldn't tell when I was on the limit of grip. Coming into turns hot and loading the front up id slipped it a few times, luckily able to save it each time as it was mostly coming into hard 90°+ turns so speeds where low.

I recently punctured the rear and decided to give the Road 6s a try. So far I have been fairly pleased. Still not as much feedback as I would like... But that's okay. This is my daily not my track bike, I don't need to be pushing it that hard. The road 6 absolutely has a more round profile, requires more consistent force throughout the lean in and turn. Whereas on the 5s I felt they would initiate into turn very easy with minimal input and gradually require more for further lean angle.

Hopefully that made sense.

Id been off the saddle for awhile and prior to these all I ran on my bikes was Dunlop Q3+ and Continental SM attacks.

[Lone Wolf]

2 hours ago, Greg3 said:

... In other words, the bike wants to increase its turning rate at low speeds, and straighten out at high speeds. This is part of what I meant by "twitchy".

To some extent, this is normal and expected.

I am not saying this is 100% the solution to all of the concerns, but the tightening of turn when slowing, and straightening as accelerate is normal physics for a motorcycle.

Watch this video with that in mind, Champ School refers to "Radius = MPH"

Champ School describes turning in a circle at "neutral throttle" as "no drama".

If you have any brain cells remaining, also watch this one. I am not changing the subject to Countersteering - but this next video has good representation of how speed affects turning, and lean angle. When you SLOW DOWN the bike will tend to fall over unless you change lean angle. This is something that happens instinctively, even on a bicycle as a kid. Knowing what and why helps us to be in control.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Lone Wolf

[klx678]

marks off...  not surprising.   I just mention the measurement method because it is an alternative I've used for years on the dual sports which are pretty clear for measure.  I think I did it with the XSR, but forget the details.  Don't get to ride enough to do a lot of adjustments.  I'll have to check when I do the adjustment this winter.

[Triple Jim]

13 hours ago, Greg3 said:

The bike literally requires constant force on the handlebars, in turns, at most speeds; something my other bikes do not require.

My MT-07 was very neutral in turns when the tires were new.  I could lake my hands off the bar and it would keep turning as it had been.  Now with a few thousand miles on it, it requires some countersteering throughout turns, and it I let go of the bar, it will straighten up and try to run off the outside of the turn.  That's normal for front tire wear.

[Greg3]

On 10/11/2023 at 7:59 AM, Triple Jim said:

My MT-07 was very neutral in turns when the tires were new.  I could lake my hands off the bar and it would keep turning as it had been.  Now with a few thousand miles on it, it requires some countersteering throughout turns, and it I let go of the bar, it will straighten up and try to run off the outside of the turn.  That's normal for front tire wear.

I guess it could be normal for some bikes, but I haven't experienced it on other bikes... but let's just take it at face value, it is what it is. The CONSEQUENCES are pretty concerning: if I'm in a "lumpy" turn, I cannot keep the counter-steer pressure on the handlebars steady due to the bumps. This results in the steering wavering back and forth with the bumps, handlebar pressure variations, and countersteering variations. In short, a very unstable progress through a turn.

My bikes that don't do this simply track steady through the bumps, generally speaking. I'm a LOT more confident (and fast) with those bikes. At this point, I just don't trust the MT07, and I keep a big "reserve" going through turn, just in case it wobbles its head again. I'm wondering what tires I might consider, that will have less (or none) of this tendency.

(I'm running Mission Trailmax (50/50 adventure tires) on my other bikes, hardly an obvious choice for a sporty turn-carver. Also, the biggest rear size in the Dunlop is 170. Stiff sidewalls too. I don't think it's a viable choice for the MT.)

[Triple Jim]

10 minutes ago, Greg3 said:

I guess it could be normal for some bikes, but I haven't experienced it on other bikes...

You're probably right, but I notice it clearly on my 1972 Kawasaki H2, my 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 250, my 1989 Moto Guzzi Mille GT, and the MT-07.  The biggest thing I look forward to when I'm putting new tires on is the restored neutral handling.

[Greg3]

40 minutes ago, Triple Jim said:

You're probably right, but I notice it clearly on my 1972 Kawasaki H2, my 2005 Kawasaki Ninja 250, my 1989 Moto Guzzi Mille GT, and the MT-07.  The biggest thing I look forward to when I'm putting new tires on is the restored neutral handling.

Amazing. I've led a sheltered life with my dual-sports. Have you experimented with more- "round" tires? Something less race-oriented and more touring-oriented? I'm really hating the non-neutral handling; I'd swap tires early if that is really the culprit. I've <heard> that Road-6's have less of this tendency -- buddy rides a K1300S and he's on his second set. His previous tires were Road 5's and definitely had a pronounced turn-in. My Road-5's are about half-worn... evenly, no cupping or excessive wear areas.

I've tried to do web searches for which is which, but the information is hard to find. Are the Dunlop Roadsmart's "rounder" than the Michelin Road-x's? Dunno.

[Lone Wolf]

On 10/7/2023 at 7:47 PM, Greg3 said:

Yes, the problems were there from the get-go. I bought the bike used with 4000 miles.

It was always harsh to ride, and unstable turning on uneven roads.

Does it still have the original tires?

if so, the profile (round or "V") will be affecting turn in due to wear at 4,000 miles plus what you have put on it since purchase of used bike.

I'm not saying to replace the tires with lots of tread and no-where near the wear bars, but they will not be "like new" at this point.
Whenever I put new tires on any street bike, I can feel how nice and neutral the turns are.

This conversation reminds me of the term "Fifty Pencing" which Lee Parks describes on page 78 of his book "Total Control". When my tires get around that 4,000 mile point (often replaced at @ 6,000 to 7,000) I will start making minor corrections to a turn. Even a gentle sweeping turn, something not quite OK and make a correction.

Same turn with brand new tires, and it just holds a line "like on rails". 

This would have nothing to do with the harshness you describe - but anytime a motorcycle is hitting bumps mid-curve there is going to be some drama. Honestly the thing that seems the most odd to me on this thread is that a Suzuki SV650 glides through these same bumpy curves unscathed. If you still own both bikes, have you taken them through the same curve, same speed, back to back?

I don't know how your new suspension is set up, but if it is for high speed track use it will feel like a brick at street legal speeds.

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Lone Wolf

[Greg3]

Interesting reference, thanks.

Not a SV650, a DL650 (Vstrom). Radically different beast, same engine.

The Vstrom has longer travel, more rake, more trail, longer wheelbase, and 75 pounds heavier than the MT. Riding the two bikes is night and day.

[Lone Wolf]

9 hours ago, Greg3 said:

... if I'm in a "lumpy" turn, I cannot keep the counter-steer pressure on the handlebars steady due to the bumps. This results in the steering wavering back and forth with the bumps, handlebar pressure variations, and countersteering variations. In short, a very unstable progress through a turn.

My bikes that don't do this simply track steady through the bumps, generally speaking. I'm a LOT more confident (and fast) with those bikes.

Have you played with rebound settings on the rear shock? I know K-tech is working with you. Changed any settings?

My guess based off what you are describing is that it could use more rebound damping.

If I was faced with what you are describing, I would make a fairly large adjustment (not one small tweak) to the rebound and go through the same curve at a modest pace. Make a fairly large adjustment the other way from where you started, see what that did to the bumps unsettling the bike. See which one may have felt more planted. Start tweaking it in smaller increments.

Also keep in mind that the Road-5 is dual compound front and rear. Even though the "half worn" 4,000 plus mile tires don't show unusual wear pattern, I am quite certain I would be able to spot where the softer sides meet the harder compound in the center. As the wear progresses, that starts to feel really odd and the new tires always feel so much better than whatever you took off once they get that dual compound showing up.

[nozeitgeist1800]

probably not much effect on turns, but as far as harshness goes, is your seat stock? if so, a lot of the bumpiness could be there, since the stock seat is hot garbage (imo), and upgrading the seat was the absolute best $600 i spent on the bike. im also curious if the bike has an ecu flash or if it is stock mappings and settings, sinec you mentioned it being a bit twitchy (unless you just mean in turns, not speed-wise).

[Triple Jim]

18 hours ago, Greg3 said:

Have you experimented with more- "round" tires?

I've used quite a few different tires on various motorcycles, but not yet on my MT.  It still has the ones it came with.

[Greg3]

12 hours ago, nozeitgeist1800 said:

probably not much effect on turns, but as far as harshness goes, is your seat stock? if so, a lot of the bumpiness could be there, since the stock seat is hot garbage (imo), and upgrading the seat was the absolute best $600 i spent on the bike. im also curious if the bike has an ecu flash or if it is stock mappings and settings, sinec you mentioned it being a bit twitchy (unless you just mean in turns, not speed-wise).

The SEAT!!! What an abomination. I bought the Comfort Seat from Yamaha. Waste of money, just a different kind of brick. What seat did you buy? I've looked at Corbin's, but they make them very firm. There's a place over in the UK (I think) that gets mixed reviews. I forget the name. I have a Seat Concepts seat for my Vstrom, and it is really firm, much worse a ride than my stock seat. Nobody else seems to be making MT07 seats.

"Twitchy" meant turning. ECU is stock as far as I know. Throttle response is fairly typical for an emissions-controlled California bike -- which is to say, jerky when going from decel to accel. Not a biggie.

[Lone Wolf]

15 minutes ago, Greg3 said:

The SEAT!!! What an abomination.

Do an internet search for "air motorcycle seat cushion" and you will find $30 knock-offs of the air hawk cushion.

If you put very little air in it, they evenly distribute pressure without feeling like you are rolling around on it.

The key is to only put enough air so 2 hands are supported when you press down, but one hand will bottom out. The 2 hands will be like your ass, and will float just over the surface of your seat. The human body gets bony sore points where the "sit bones" are located. The cheap pad eliminates that.

They look strange, but who cares - they work. I have a Corbin on one of my bikes, hard as a rock. With a $30 pad it is awesome.

[Greg3]

I'll definitely check out the air cushions. I don't have too much problem with sit-bones, but my fake/metal hip does get sore the soonest. Mostly, though, it's the jolting. Hopefully the air cushion can help soak up some bumps.

[Triple Jim]

Funny... I'm fine with the stock seat.

[Lone Wolf]

25 minutes ago, Greg3 said:

Mostly, though, it's the jolting. Hopefully the air cushion can help soak up some bumps.

It WON'T help with that.

That is the job of suspension. Back in 1972 I had a Harley chopper in a rigid frame (yes I am also an old guy). Your description reminds me riding my rigid frame Harley with evil handling springer front end (they had zero hydraulics, simply springs, but looked cool).

It was terrible on sweeping turns with bumpy road - I can't believe you are experiencing so much grief with a late model MT-07. 

This is what my air cushion looks like on one of my bikes, an old Honda 750. Best $30 ever spent. Ugly, but totally eliminates the "hot spots" where the sit bones are - I don't have a lot of natural padding.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Lone Wolf

[Greg3]

OK, glad you clarified it. The best I can describe the difference (in my bikes/seats) is that the Vstrom and DR have a "squishy" element, not huge but definitely there. The MT seats, and the Vstrom Seat Concepts seat, don't "squish", they're compliant but firm. Jolts in the road absolutely get (a bit) absorbed in squishy-seat deflection.

[wollerms]

I have a 2019 with a Nitron rear shock, Race Tech springs and gold valves, and Bridgestone S22 tires. I set cold pressures at 32 psi front and 30 psi rear. It's planted and I ride the back roads of east Tennessee which mostly are good but with bumps and chip/seal patches. I say if your suspension is set to recommended settings and you set sag properly then maybe try new tires.  Seat is fine but I do use a vented cover to combat 95-degree temp and monkey ass.

https://www.amazon.com/Motorcycle-Cushion-Protector-Breathable-Ventilates/dp/B08BT2FP14/ref=sr_1_23?adgrpid=1227055287228402&hvadid=76691122012430&hvbmt=bp&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=91462&hvnetw=s&hvqmt=p&hvtargid=kwd-76691190879189%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=20006_13491455&keywords=motorcycle%2Bcushion%2Bseat%2Bpad&qid=1697240660&sr=8-23&th=1

 

[nozeitgeist1800]

On 10/13/2023 at 12:44 PM, Greg3 said:

The SEAT!!! What an abomination. I bought the Comfort Seat from Yamaha. Waste of money, just a different kind of brick. What seat did you buy? I've looked at Corbin's, but they make them very firm. There's a place over in the UK (I think) that gets mixed reviews. I forget the name. I have a Seat Concepts seat for my Vstrom, and it is really firm, much worse a ride than my stock seat. Nobody else seems to be making MT07 seats.

"Twitchy" meant turning. ECU is stock as far as I know. Throttle response is fairly typical for an emissions-controlled California bike -- which is to say, jerky when going from decel to accel. Not a biggie.

ya the stock seat is ass, and i havent heard much better about the comfort seat, either. i bought the corbin seat, and absolutely adore it. went from about 20 minute rides making my butt sore/numb to basically endless ride with no discomfort, cant recommend enough. couldnt tell either way on firmness, since the only comparison i have is the stock seat which is just half in of cushion on wood plank, so it ends up being no cushion at all after 5 minutes of sitting on it.