Removed camshaft in wrong position

[Paulb5950]

If possible id try and find some 8-12" thin tweezers.

I have some I keep in my shop for reaching into those hard to get to places. Not at home otherwise I'd post a picture of what I'm referring to.

 

Something along the lines of these but longer if possible.

https://www.tdiinternational.com/product/119-style-high-precision-tweezers/

 

Good luck brother! Don't loose hope, your close!

[Lone Wolf]

On 4/12/2024 at 2:54 AM, magiccube said:

Got the sparkplug out now by pressing down hard, when it felt like it was in the right direction. Unfortunately this caused the peace of the seal to drop into the left cylinder, when removing the spark plug...

... I can barely feel the seal.

Do a search for - Borescope or Endoscope or Otoscope

You can find very affordable ones that plug into a cell phone as display. They are the diameter of a pencil with lights at the end. This will help you see what you are trying to grab. You may have room to put the borescope down the plug hole, then a grabber device also in the plug hole to retrieve the debris.

Edited April 13 by Lone Wolf

[Lone Wolf]

My single lens borescope might struggle to see your debris. I would try something like this VEVOR Triple Lens Inspection Camera with Light

[magiccube]

So an other update. I got really sick over the weekend (guess some virus from greece) and spend like 80% of the the day on the toilett and the other 20% sleeping.

So my dad was kind enough to take a look for me while I was sick. Turns out it is not in the drain hole i thought earlier, as he took the exhaust off and poked through the hole. I than yesterday ordered an endoscope.

On 4/13/2024 at 3:30 PM, Lone Wolf said:

My single lens borescope might struggle to see your debris. I would try something like this VEVOR Triple Lens Inspection Camera with Light

As suggested I got one with 2 cameras, which I would also higly recommend for anyone running into the same problem wouldn't have found the seal with only one.

Still sick, but couldn't resist looking through the endoscope. And the seal of course is in the zylinder. And as i never get lucky with these kind of things it wasn't just above the hole but rather all the way on the side at the outer wall as you can see below:

If I feel better tomorrow I wanted to try again with a realy thin hose and the vaccum maybe thats enough.

after I wanted to try with double sided tape on the end of the endscope maybe thats even enough for it to stick.

Other wise i have a few ideas I would 3d print and attach to the endoscope with a wire to maybe pull it out.

Defenetly not going to give up and try everything else before I risk disassembling the motor anymore.

[AP996]

53 minutes ago, magiccube said:

I feel better tomorrow I wanted to try again with a realy thin hose and the vaccum maybe thats enough.

after I wanted to try with double sided tape on the end of the endscope maybe thats even enough for it to stick.

Other

Your choice, but personally I think I’d try the vacuum hose rigged to a smaller pipe first before I put more things in the cylinder and risk them dropping off.

Good luck.

[magiccube]

29 minutes ago, AP996 said:

Your choice, but personally I think I’d try the vacuum hose rigged to a smaller pipe first before I put more things in the cylinder and risk them dropping off.

Good luck.

Thanks, that was my plan just will have to look if i can find a small enough pipe that fits all the way through, we already tried a hose that fits right above the thread for the spark plug, but that wasn't enough.

After I will think about the other options, but i defently dont want to drop anything else in there...

[magiccube]

An other update, as I got really sick again after my last post, I put off working on the bike for a while.

But yesterday and today I got back to trying to get the f@#king seal out sofar with out any luck.

What I have tried:

1. double sided tape on wire (doesn't rly stick on the seal)

2. vakkum: I 3d printed a hose that perfectly fits in the sparkplug hole, but also at the same time is thin enough so the seal fits inside. I tested this by cutting a peace a abit bigger than the on that fell inside from the broken seal. This worked fine. I than got a wire and fiddled around for about 1h to get the seal perfectly placed above the hole. I than placed the 3d printed hose inside the cylinder and turned on the vaccuum. At some point when lowering it enough i could even feel the seal what i thought getting sucked up, but turns out just getting knocked around the cylinder. I tried this multiple times, for like 4h with diffrent versions of the hose, which all worked outside the zylinder but never inside. Below you can see the placement of the seal before 

3. wire lasso: Tried to make a "lasso" with the wire and then use the endoscope to push against the wire to close it. This also didn't work as it took to much pressure on the wire to close it. This would cause the seal to get knocked out all the time

The last thing I want to try is a grabber as suggested by @Lone Wolf, which I already ordered and should arrive tomorrow.

If this doesn't work I am honestly out of ideas. The only thing I have also thought about is removing the engine, letting out all the oil and than have a few people lift it and turn it upside down and shake till the seal hopefully drops out.

[Lone Wolf]

Damn. I think the scope you ordered comes with tips you can attach to the end of it.

Seems like you could bend one of the tips straight out and stab it into the gasket.

At any rate, you have some hard won lessons. Even with a simple air cooled vintage motorcycle with lots of room around the spark plugs, you still need to blast the area with compressed air and be damn sure there are no little rocks or debris that can fall in when the plug is removed. Now you know.

I think i walked by your car the other day

Edited April 19 by Lone Wolf

[magiccube]

17 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Damn. I think the scope you ordered comes with tips you can attach to the end of it.

Seems like you could bend one of the tips straight out and stab it into the gasket.

At any rate, you have some hard won lessons. Even with a simple air cooled vintage motorcycle with lots of room around the spark plugs, you still need to blast the area with compressed air and be damn sure there are no little rocks or debris that can fall in when the plug is removed. Now you know.

I think i walked by your car the other day

So I just tried something like this for the past 4h.

Seems like I will have to pull the cylinder head. 

As I couldn't get the hook sharp enough to be able to penetrate the seal, my dad drilled a small hole into it and put a needle through and glued it to the hook (wire to secure it was to thick)

This worked for poking the seal and getting it out somewhat, but it would always fall once I reached the Thread, as it is too wide to fit through the hole and there was no way for me to stand it up and than poke it. (I actually managed to stand it up once, but the secound i touched it it fell over).

To make things worse, as nothing ever seems to work out on my last try the needle broke off and I have no clue where it went...

Below you can see the hook with the broken off needle... 

I also don't realy feel comfortable to pull the head, as so much went wrong so far and I just feel like it just screams for an other disaster...

Also I just looked how much the seal for the cylinder head is, it is 90€... which in my opinion is a robbery in it self for just a small seal. Is there anyway to get them cheaper? It also says in the manuell to replace the screws which are 6 in total and 12,5€ each, so that would be an other 75€.

Also anyone ever pulled the cylinder head while the motor is still on the bike or would you recommend pulling the motor first?

All this combined, also has me thinking of just selling the bike as is (i know would probatly be a huge loss), but I don't really have the 200€ for the parts i would need right now if i pulled the head, and defenetly not the money to buy more parts if anything else goes wrong... 

[M. Hausknecht]

Yes, if you pull the head, you'll need a new head gasket and new head bolts (they are single use). I've not removed the head with the motor in the 07 but i have with other bikes and it was ok. 

I have a wacky thought. What do you think would happen if you aimed a propane torch into the spark plug hole? Would it burn up the rubber gasket piece and leave it as ash, or nearly so? Or would it melt and gunk up the rings? The flame certainly wouldn't hurt the piston or the cylinder. You might take a piece of the rubber gasket and see what happens if you put a torch to it.

 

[AP996]

This has gone from bad to worse and yes with a piece of the needle missing it’s time to lift the head, personally I’d remove the engine to do this as you’ll have much more room and easier access to everything and you won’t for example have the same problem when you fit the new cam cover gasket. I would buy the 200 euros of parts (yes it’s a rip off) as your going to loose much more if you sell it as it is.

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, magiccube said:

... on my last try the needle broke off and I have no clue where it went...

The needle can be picked up with a magnet. I think your kit came with one. Even if you don't "see" the needle, it will cling to the magnet.

And the grabber tool (when it arrives) may hold on to that other gasket debris better than the other attempts. I wouldn't pull that head yet.

[magiccube]

3 hours ago, M. Hausknecht said:

Yes, if you pull the head, you'll need a new head gasket and new head bolts (they are single use). I've not removed the head with the motor in the 07 but i have with other bikes and it was ok. 

I have a wacky thought. What do you think would happen if you aimed a propane torch into the spark plug hole? Would it burn up the rubber gasket piece and leave it as ash, or nearly so? Or would it melt and gunk up the rings? The flame certainly wouldn't hurt the piston or the cylinder. You might take a piece of the rubber gasket and see what happens if you put a torch to it.

 

This is actually kind of what my dad suggested (he said just turn it on once the new gasket arrives as it burns anyway), but I like your idea better so i will have to try that once i get the needle out.

2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

The needle can be picked up with a magnet. I think your kit came with one. Even if you don't "see" the needle, it will cling to the magnet.

And the grabber tool (when it arrives) may hold on to that other gasket debris better than the other attempts. I wouldn't pull that head yet.

Yeah probatly going to try this tomorrow, and hopefully get it out...

I stoped today as I felt like it is probatly not a good idea to continue with how frustrated I was at that point. Also the grabber tool arrived today, but is slightly to big and won't fit into the hole.

3 hours ago, AP996 said:

This has gone from bad to worse and yes with a piece of the needle missing it’s time to lift the head, personally I’d remove the engine to do this as you’ll have much more room and easier access to everything and you won’t for example have the same problem when you fit the new cam cover gasket. I would buy the 200 euros of parts (yes it’s a rip off) as your going to loose much more if you sell it as it is.

Yeah thats what I am probatly going to do if I don't get it out any other way (probatly will only try tomorrow and than pull it). I can afford the parts now as well, as my dad (he knows my financial situation right now after some stuff happened) just came by and gave me an envelope with the money missing for the parts. Didn't really exspect this as I have basically paid for my stuff since i am 16, but really thank full. At the same time I kind of feel bad that he is now paying for my mistakes, so I want to only use the money as a last resort and would rather give it back to him.

 

Thanks for all the replies once again, will update tomorrow on how it goes...

Also I couldn't completly hold back on checking if the needle actually fell in the cylinder:

Edited April 20 by magiccube

[Lone Wolf]

43 minutes ago, magiccube said:

...Also the grabber tool arrived today, but is slightly to big and won't fit into the hole.

Really? I have one like the photo I posted earlier. It is smaller than a spark plug diameter.

Here's an interesting video. Compared to the labor of pulling the head - I would throw money at tools. 

There are also borescopes that articulate but I don't have experience with them. I always seem to find a use for tools.

https://aitproducts.com/products/foreign-object-retrieval-tools/foreign-material-retrieval.html

This place has very small ones https://intertest.com/collections/micro-retrieval-tools

Check out the following playlist - they have a lot of small retrieval tools

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgKYYExEd16h5C_vprG15mooGCsxJnF1X

Do a search using the term - micro retrieval tool

Edited April 20 by Lone Wolf

[AP996]

Maybe try what @Lone Wolf and @M. Hausknechtsays before pulling the motor, I’m trying to think of an any other relatively easy way to achieve a good result with this issue.

[magiccube]

So I finally got the seal and the needle out as well. So now I just have to wait for the new seal to arrive and I should be good to go.

I tired today again with the vaccuum but this time I lowered the pistion all the way so the vaccum isn't trying to pull a vaccum and there is actually fresh air as the valves are open. This also worked than after the secound try. (Probatly should have paid more attention in physics class)

I than filled a small hose with a bunch of small magnets und wiggled it around the cylinder for like 5mins and got the needle out as well.

My friend also gave me his friends number who is becoming a motorcycle mechanic so hopefully I can borrow the tool for the sychronisation from him. I just hit him up on whatsapp.

Thanks again for all the help, for now I just have to wait for the new seal to arrive.

Edited April 21 by magiccube

[Paulb5950]

Good job sticking with it! Things happen, and you had a rough go. It's easy to get discouraged through those types of situations. 

Glad you got it figured out, and got to learn some new things along the way! Plus new tools is never a bad thing haha.

Time to get it back up and running! Keep us posted. 

[magiccube]

Ok an other quick update. As the shipping for the seal was an other 1 week, I just made the 1h drive to the closest dealership that had the seal in stock and picked it up.

This is when I noticed that the new seal had an extra string my old seal didn't have when I removed the cover.

Here a picture of the old seal after I just removed it:

And here a picture of the new seal with the "new" part higlighted and the old seal next to it:

As we don't have "permatex" here and I couldn't find it anywhere I asked the shop what they use and just picked that stuff up. 

They also recommended me to let it dry for a while so it sticks even better before putting the cover back on, which is what I am doing right now.

So I figured I would wait for now if everything is as it should be with the new seal before putting it back on and potentially having an other fail.

 

[Paulb5950]

It's a bit difficult for me to tell in the picture, but the new "string" on the seal doesn't appear that have a seal line in it - meaning to me, that it doesn't appear it will be pressured between two mating surfaces. My guess, and it's just a guess is that's been added to help hold things in the correct positions when being installed. 

I have not pulled the head off a CP2 so I'm not sure on the layout or if my guess is any good. 

A quick search online might give you some more insight. I'd check to see if there maybe was an older seal part number that has been updated/ superceded. 

[Lone Wolf]

5 hours ago, magiccube said:

...I noticed that the new seal had an extra string my old seal didn't have when I removed the cover.

Do you have a manual?

[magiccube]

2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Do you have a manual?

Thanks. I do my bad I should have checked it. I felt like I read it so many times by now I would have remembered it, but I was skipping over that part as I wasn't using any bond or a new seal (heard it wasn't realy needed, but i guess its better to stick to the manuel). Just happy I waited and didnt try installing it yet.

Edited April 22 by magiccube

[Pursuvant]

You should confirm a few things while you wait to put the valve cover on.

Check the cam chain tensioner, it has a factory ink dot marking the TOP when it is installed with the correct orientation.

Check the cam chain, is it properly tensioned? The tutorial shows how to check & set slack during reinstall.

Turn the motor over several times, then align the rotor timing mark and intake & exhaust cam gear timing marks with the cylinder head. It will be obvious if the timing is off. 

Then position the rotor timing mark to put the cams in the position for measuring valve clearances. Go through the process again of measuring valve clearances, rotating 270 degrees, measuring. Confirm your valve clearances are all in tolerance.

Do these things before buttoning the engine up, and you will know it's safe to start.

If you are planning on adjusting throttle bodies, remember you do not change the intake #1 setting. You only adjust intake #2 to get it synchronized with where intake #1 was set by the factory.

It's good to have a buddy, or your dad, check all your work before you hit the start button or take a ride.

[magiccube]

An other quick update. Everything seems to run fine now, she only took a bit long to start up, but that might just also be that there is a bit too much oil inside right now. I will take care of that tomorrow but it got so dark now I couldn't see the markings correctly.

14 hours ago, Pursuvant said:

Turn the motor over several times, then align the rotor timing mark and intake & exhaust cam gear timing marks with the cylinder head. It will be obvious if the timing is off. 

Then position the rotor timing mark to put the cams in the position for measuring valve clearances. Go through the process again of measuring valve clearances, rotating 270 degrees, measuring. Confirm your valve clearances are all in tolerance.

Do these things before buttoning the engine up, and you will know it's safe to start.

I have to be honest I didn't do this, as I already did it like 5 times before the first time starting the engine, when I misplaced the seal. I figured it wouldn't be necessary, as I didn't touch anything other than remove the cover and get the seal out, but nothing valves related.

Here is a video of her running, to me and my dad (he came home right when I was about to start it), she sounds good:

https://i.imgur.com/2KcDgBZ.mp4

Also here a video of the first start, and it taking quite long to fire. The smoke you can see is just the grease burning of i used to fit the seals into the exhaust hole so they wouldn't fall out when reinstalling the exhaust:

https://i.imgur.com/HuugVAw.mp4

Thanks again for all the help, hopefully the rest should be easier now. Still kind of scared of doing the forks tho, but i will figure it out.

 

Edited April 23 by magiccube

[Lone Wolf]

Well done - you did it!

On 4/5/2024 at 10:38 AM, magiccube said:

After I have to also change the fork seals, as I broke them from wheelies... 

Watch a bunch of videos and get proper seal driver (made of metal).

I did some forks last year using PVC pipe for seal driver and it was very frustrating.

Just get decent tools, even if they are knock-off or generic brand.

[magiccube]

9 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Well done - you did it!

Watch a bunch of videos and get proper seal driver (made of metal).

I did some forks last year using PVC pipe for seal driver and it was very frustrating.

Just get decent tools, even if they are knock-off or generic brand.

I was thinking of 3d printing one, but i guess thats not realy better than a pvc pipe. I will look into it and than try to get my hands on the right Tools. To be honest other than the Video i already shared I haven't realy looked into how to do the seals, but i will do that tomorrow.