Removed camshaft in wrong position

[magiccube]

Hey,

so I just released I removed the crankshaft in the wrong position when trying to adjust the valve clearance on my bike.

This was my first time doing this on any bike. I feel kind of stupid, as I only looked on youtube and in the service manual and miss understood the instructions and just now found this forum and the insturctions here.

So basically I had the camshaft in the position for measuring the valve clreance when remoiving the cover, so with the valves facing away from each other instead towords each other.

I also had the Allignment on the other side rotated by 180, so the allignment "I" on the right side instead of the left side.

Basically the only thing I had right was the hole on the other side (Source: https://www.mt07-forum.de/attachment/18805-pxl-20240224-142743267-jpg/)

When removing the cover of the crankshaft on the intake side ( first one i removed) at some point (would guess about half way through) I heard a "clicking" noise, and the allignment "I" as shown above moved, so the allignment "E" of the left crankshaft, was now in the position as it was before. This is also when I knew I f@#ked up.

Here a picture of the crankshaft, basically the "E" was now where the "I" was before.

I am not sure on what to do now, as from my understanding, the timing should be off now right? This means I would have to recalibrate the timing which is something I have no clue on how to do.
Or would be just putting the camstaft back in the right position be sufficent enough? (Or even in the position I removed it in?)

I would really appreciate any tipps, as I dont really have the money to afford going to a shop right now.

Also I noticed some scratch marks on the camshaft (i think they are normal wear but I would like to get some other opinions):

Thanks in advance for everyone taking the time to read this/ help me. 
And sry for my bad english, hope it is somewhat understandable.

Edited April 2 by magiccube

[AP996]

Just align all the marks as it says in the manual when you put it back together and all should be fine, be careful to pull the cams down evenly.

[magiccube]

10 hours ago, AP996 said:

Just align all the marks as it says in the manual when you put it back together and all should be fine, be careful to pull the cams down evenly.

Perfect, thanks for the reply. This is probatly what I am going to do, as if I understand it right the timing is set by the camshafts. 

Also the timing for the injection of the fuel is set by the camsahft or by the crankshaft? Because if it is set by the crankshaft wouldn't i have to turn it by 360 degrees so the fuel isnt injected on the wrong stroke? 

And you "only" have to have them in the right position when removing, so there is no pressure on the camshafts and they don't get damaged.
 

Edited April 3 by magiccube

[M. Hausknecht]

4 hours ago, magiccube said:

Perfect, thanks for the reply. This is probatly what I am going to do, as if I understand it right the timing is set by the camshafts. 

Also the timing for the injection of the fuel is set by the camsahft or by the crankshaft? Because if it is set by the crankshaft wouldn't i have to turn it by 360 degrees so the fuel isnt injected on the wrong stroke? 

And you "only" have to have them in the right position when removing, so there is no pressure on the camshafts and they don't get damaged.
 

There is a crankshaft position sensor which sends data to the ECU but there are no sensors on either cam. Just line up the cams correctly when the crank is in position, you'll be fine. It helps to use your finger to emulate the cam chain tensioner when installing the cams. Last time I removed one or both cams I had changed the cam timing (slotted cam gears); that makes figuring out where the lines on the cams should be more difficult.

[Paulb5950]

Yup as the others said you should be okay to proceed as long as you line your cams back up correctly per the manual. 

Also id say your wear on the cams looks normal and minimal, no worry.

[magiccube]

I am just in the middle off putting everything back together as I had to wait for the shims.

Now an other maybe dumb question came up, as I am currently trying to get the timing right following these instructions 

Maybe I am following the instructions too close, so I thought before I do anything wrong again I am just going to ask here and wait for now.

as you can see in the graphic above, in the instructions the timing mark is between a single chain link, but it also states it should be tight on the exhaust side. If I fit it like that for me the timing mark would be between two chain links. I tried to ilustrate this in the graphic below:

Right now I have it torqued down with excatly 32 links like in the instructions, but with a bit of slack on the exhaust side, so option 2, because I wanted to follow the instructions as close as possible to not f@#k up again. 

The more that I think about wouldn't option 1 not actually be better, as in option 2 the chain tensinor would probatly cause the chain to skip a tooth on the crankshaft, or there would always be play on the exhaust side that isn't wanted.

Would realy appreciate a short feedback, which option is better/ or if it even matters.

This is what I have right now:

[Pursuvant]

The link plates can be ignored.

Your "Case 1" is fine because you have no slack in the cam chain and you have identified the pin #1, that you will count from to index your intake cam.

Your Case 2 would be fine too, except it's got slack in the cam chain, so you are not sure where is pin #1 to count from.

[magiccube]

2 hours ago, Pursuvant said:

The link plates can be ignored.

Your "Case 1" is fine because you have no slack in the cam chain and you have identified the pin #1, that you will count from to index your intake cam.

Your Case 2 would be fine too, except it's got slack in the cam chain, so you are not sure where is pin #1 to count from.

Thanks, than I will change it to "case 1" tomorrow. Just to be safe.

PS: Just wanted to thank everybody for taking the time ot of their day to help me.

Edited April 5 by magiccube

[magiccube]

I just f@#ked up again I guess...

I am starting to think this service is too much for my capabilites...

When trying to change everything to "Option 1" I pulled a little too hard on the chain on the exhaust side, which threw the marking of the crankshaft of on the other side.

I than zip tied the chain on both sides to the top of the bike so it had pressure on both sides, and truned the crankshaft counter clock wise till it was on the mark. 

The first time this almost worked but i overshot the mark a bit so i tried a secound turn, where in the middle it wouldn't move anymore...

I just tried this again with someone else holding the chain on pressure and me turning the crank, but it still doesn't move.

Does this mean the chain came of the sprocket, what do I do from here?

[Lone Wolf]

On 4/5/2024 at 5:36 AM, magiccube said:

I just f@#ked up again I guess...

I am starting to think this service is too much for my capabilites...

Nope. This is how we learn. At least you didn't try to start the engine.

In addition to the references you mentioned and thread you are following - here is a great tip from another thread.

If you walk away with this lesson for the future you will know more than most.

6. Mark the chain pins and sprocket teeth with corresponding witness marks (white out - before removal)

Edited April 6 by Lone Wolf

[AP996]

3 hours ago, magiccube said:

I just f@#ked up again I guess...

I am starting to think this service is too much for my capabilites...

When trying to change everything to "Option 1" I pulled a little too hard on the chain on the exhaust side, which threw the marking of the crankshaft of on the other side.

I than zip tied the chain on both sides to the top of the bike so it had pressure on both sides, and truned the crankshaft counter clock wise till it was on the mark. 

The first time this almost worked but i overshot the mark a bit so i tried a secound turn, where in the middle it wouldn't move anymore...

I just tried this again with someone else holding the chain on pressure and me turning the crank, but it still doesn't move.

Does this mean the chain came of the sprocket, what do I do from here?

I think your working a little to much on getting the marks lined up to the last micron, get them lined up within a bit get the tensioner back in, turn the motor over and check again, if your a whole tooth out it will be obvious and you just need to pull the tensioner out and move the chain one tooth, take your time, all will be fine,

[Pursuvant]

From Part 1 of the tutorial, I did a copy and paste (below) for your consideration. If you want to be successful with the tutorial, you read and do everything step by step from the tutorial. And in doing so you find things in the tutorial like below, in bold. You only rotate the engine in the direction it turns when running. The OP problem that started this thread was caused by turning the crank while the cams were out of the bike, something the tutorial warns against. When you don't following the tutorial, problems are compounded.

 

----begin copy FROM TUTORIAL

This is the view from the "LEFT" side of bike (gear shift side). Remove the crankshaft cover and the timing mark access bolt. Only rotate the engine counter-clockwise.

 

----end copy FROM TUTORIAL 

[magiccube]

Thanks for all the replies I just got back from the garage so here is an other update:

after some help from my dad, when he got home from work (he has way more knowledge than I do), we manged to free the chain and get everything lined up for the crankshaft again.

For anyone maybe having the same issue: We turned the the crank slightly clockwise to get the pressure a bit of the stuck chain, than pulled and wiggled, this took like 10mins of slowly wiggling the crank around without actually moving it and at the same time pulling on the chain.

After one more shock (thought I droped a bolt into the engine, luckly it just got stuck outside the engine between some hoses), I manged to put everything together. All the valves seem to be on the upper limit of the range now, so thats perfect. The marks seem to match after a 720 degree turn, how they should. I tried this mulitple times and it stays the same, so that should be good as well.

1 hour ago, AP996 said:

I think your working a little to much on getting the marks lined up to the last micron, get them lined up within a bit get the tensioner back in, turn the motor over and check again, if your a whole tooth out it will be obvious and you just need to pull the tensioner out and move the chain one tooth, take your time, all will be fine,

This tipp also greatly helped as I was focused way to much on lining everything up perfectly. Would have probatly safed me at least 4h 

Now I just have to put the cover back on, put in the new spark plugs and than reassemble everything and check if it runs like it should. But that shouldn't be too difficult hopefully. After I want to also do the throttle body synchronization. Would a simple cheap gauge like in this video be sufficant enough for that, or should I try to get a professional one from a friend of mine that works at a shop for cars?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGzFAccHmso&list=PLl65rZAtfFNnz-ECn4Jka2lnO90VzH2kB&index=15

After I have to also change the fork seals, as I broke them from wheelies... There I am planning to follow this video for the most part (it is German):

I was also thinking of changing the 10w fork oil for a 15w fork oil as the suspension feels really wobbly and I heard some people were doing that to comabt this. My dad said he wouldn't do that as it can completly throw of the dampening. I was just wondering if maybe some of you guys had exsperience with that?

Probatly have to do most of that stuff next week tho, as I am going to be on vacation for 5 days in Greece.

Thanks again for all the help here greatly appreciate it. If any of you guys are ever in munich, germany feel free to hit me up for a drive on the autobahn, that would be the least i could do after all the help.

 

 

 

Edited April 5 by magiccube

[M. Hausknecht]

I prefer a synch tool like this to gauges, which can have some variability between them. https://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0411  Done well, the motor will run a little smoother. Good for you learning how to work on your bike. It is tough at the beginning but each time you do it, you'll learn something new. After a while and accumulation of all the tools and stuff you use, you'll feel more confident and ready to do more difficult jobs. You're learning skills you'll use the rest of your life, and be better off for it.

[AP996]

Glad you got it all figured out and back together, you learn more when things don’t go to plan and you’ll be more confident next time.

I run 15w oil in my forks, you get better rebound damping but the trade off is the forks are even more harsh over bumps, I keep planning to try some YSS emulators in the forks which are a reasonable price. Ideally I’d like some proper cartridges but I’m way to tight to pay for them

[Paulb5950]

First and foremost good job tackling the job and working through the problems. So many people hit one hiccup and give up. As others have said, you learned more from it and in the future will have more knowledge for future tasks. 

I'd say depending on your personal weight, and riding style will really tell if you'd like the 15w. Will be a bit less "divey" into loading but you will most certainly feel the hard hits more. 

[magiccube]

An other update, kind of late as I just got back from vacation and wanted it to be a postive one..

Thanks again for all the replies in the mean time.

I still haven't managed to get my hands on one of those professional tools to do the throttle body synchronization, but that can wait now anyway.

I will probatly stick with the 10w for now as a friend gifted me a bottle he had laying around, so i can save some money there.

I wanted my next updated to be of the engine running. The following video is taken a few secounds after starting the engine, which took a bit longer to spark than usuall. During the video i noticed the a burning smell, which is why i turned of the engine. At first I thought it was some kind of cable burning, but now I actually think it was leaking oil that was burning. 

https://i.imgur.com/qHIKtY9.mp4

After turning of the video and looking around a bit I noticed some oil leaking and dripping to the ground. I think this oil comes from the exhaust, or to be more precise the point the exhaust connects to the engine. This doesn't really make sense to me tho, as I didn't touch the exhaust for about the last 2k-4k km, as the last time I removed the exhaust was to mount the original exhaust to pass the emission tests they have you do here every 2 years. I remember having a hard time mounting the exhaust back on back than and not beeing sure if it was fully back on. Than again I am pretty sure there shouldn't even get any oil there in the first place to beginn with right? If it is normal for oil to get there, I still don't understand why it should leak now, as i am pritty sure it hasnt leaked before.

Anyways here are some pictures, once again I really appreciate any help:

In the picture above I think the right side was dirty like that before starting the engine and i just forgot to clean it.

Edit some additional pictures with better light:

Edited April 11 by magiccube

[AP996]

Don’t panic yet, i believe there are some drain holes from the spark plug areas in the head and you have probably not got the cam cover gasket on correctly allowing oil to leak into the spark plug chambers and than drain to where you are seeing the oil.

Edited April 11 by AP996

[magiccube]

58 minutes ago, AP996 said:

Don’t panic yet, i believe there are some drain holes from the spark plug areas in the head and you have probably not got the cam cover gasket on correctly allowing oil to leak into the spark plug chambers and than drain to where you are seeing the oil.

Thank, you. Just to make sure since my english isn't the best, you mean the thing in marked in the picture below?

I was really struggeling of it not slipping off close too where the sparkplugs go. I thought I had it on the right way at the end tho, so your guess is it slipped a bit and is probatly not sealing correctly, thus the oil exiting through and getting where it isn't supposed to go?

So off with the cooler again, remove the spurkplugs, the cover and than make sure it seals correctly? Or do I have to clean something else as the oil got where it isn't supposed to go?

Edit- So basically the oil right now is following the route as marked in the picture below? If thats the case, wouldn't that also mean if i remove the spark plugs/coils they should be covered in oil? 

Also shouldn't I than also replace the seal for the cover? As it has been torqued down now the wrong way?

Edited April 11 by magiccube

[AP996]

1 hour ago, magiccube said:

you mean the thing in marked in the picture below?

Yes thats the gasket i think is misaligned, i’m not sure if you would be able to reuse it after pulling down misaligned, most probably not.

I’ve never had the problem as i’ve always had the engine out when refitting the cover so its been easy to get it on correctly but yes if i’m right i would expect your spark plugs to have oil on the outside of them.

[magiccube]

38 minutes ago, AP996 said:

Yes thats the gasket i think is misaligned, i’m not sure if you would be able to reuse it after pulling down misaligned, most probably not.

I’ve never had the problem as i’ve always had the engine out when refitting the cover so its been easy to get it on correctly but yes if i’m right i would expect your spark plugs to have oil on the outside of them.

Perfect, thank you. Than I will take everything apart tomorrow again and update here..

[Pursuvant]

This is good stuff, you can wet the gasket and the valve cover, stick the gasket into its groove in the valve cover, and gasket will stay in place while putting it on the engine head.

[magiccube]

 

6 hours ago, Pursuvant said:

This is good stuff, you can wet the gasket and the valve cover, stick the gasket into its groove in the valve cover, and gasket will stay in place while putting it on the engine head.

Thank you, I will try to get that stuff.

So I am pretty sure @AP996was right now. I just took everything back off and the spark coil was covered in oil on the left side. Unfortunatly it seems like the seal was completly blown out, as far as I can feel with my fingers there seems to be an about 0.5cm peace cut out. I also can't get the spark plug socket to get any grip on the spark plug on that side. My guess is this peace of the seal is now stuck between the spark plug and the wall of the enigine, so I will have to see how I get that out. More than thankfull for any ideas.

 

Edit:

Got the sparkplug out now by pressing down hard, when it felt like it was in the right direction. Unfortunatly this caused the peace of the seal to drop into the left cylinder, when removing the spark plug...

Now thinking back at it i should have put the cylinder in top dead center first to prevent the case i have now, as a piece of the seal is now stuck in the small opnening between the cylinder and the top. I tried to illustrate this in the drawing below. I can bearly feel the seal. Would I break anything if i truned the crank clock wise? That way I could hopefully lower the pistion a bit more and reach the seal or at least reposition it to than get the cylinder in top dead center without the seal squisqued inbetween.

To my understanding this should work, but i read not to turn clockwise a few times now but never a reason for it so i just want to make sure before i f@#k up even more.

Edited April 12 by magiccube

[AP996]

I wouldn’t worry too much about turning the motor backwards a bit, not sure how your going to fish that piece of rubber gasket out, maybe if you could rig a vacuum cleaner hose to a smaller pipe that you could get over the spark plug hole

Hope you get it sorted out without too much more drama, your certainly having a hard time with this.

[magiccube]

3 hours ago, AP996 said:

I wouldn’t worry too much about turning the motor backwards a bit, not sure how your going to fish that piece of rubber gasket out, maybe if you could rig a vacuum cleaner hose to a smaller pipe that you could get over the spark plug hole

Hope you get it sorted out without too much more drama, your certainly having a hard time with this.

Haha yeah ture, I feel like everything that can go wrong goes wrong for me. I was already joking with my dad today, that you could probatly use my thread as a example of what not to do :D.

I tried 3d printing some pliers i could maybe use to fish it out. As one pair of them didn't fit I broke them in half and wanted to only use one side to maybe at least move the peace a bit. This was when i noticed i wasn't even reaching the buttom with my hands before, and I am actually pretty sure the peace is in the channel the oil was flowing through.

I am pretty sure now I thought the channel was the gap between the pistion and the top. Wouldn't this also mean if i turned on the exhaust now the peace would just get pushed through the channel and go out thorugh the exhaust? When I just put a small stick in I get way further down than just with my fingers, till I think I than actually hit the pistion, I can also feel some kind of hole so that makes sense. 

Or could i maybe just connect a strong vakkum to the exhaust on that side and get it out that way?