I often have trouble rev-match downshifting from 2 to 1 (2017)

[navid]

I rode an MT03 before this bike and I could rev-match downshift it like butter.

On this bike, when I try to downshift, I often miss shifts. When I fail to shift, it feels like I'm pressing on a sponge and I don't feel the clunk of the shifter. This by far happens most from 2 to 1, but I've also faced it going 4 to 3. The other gears generally are much rarer for me to miss. 

I was wondering if this is an issue with my bike or it's just the nature of this transmission. Any advice is appreciated.

[Evill_Ed]

You may need to adjust your shift lever angle. The shift drum has to completely return to its rest position to ratchet the next gear (for up or down shifting) If you shift and have a little pressure on the shift lever, like it resting on or under your shoe for instance, the shift drum cannot ratchet to the next gear position. When you try shifting up or down, the lever will move but the gear wont change. 

You can test this by going for a ride and intentionally moving your foot away from the shift lever between shifts to allow the shift drum to return to its rest position. Then you should be able to shift up or down to the next gear. 

Ed

[Lone Wolf]

Why would you "rev-match" into first gear?

Just because you were able to do in on your MT03 doesn't mean it is a good idea.

Obviously first gear is needed when taking off from a stop, or after you come to a stop so that you can take off again when the light turns green. Once you are underway, moving between 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. is easily done on virtually any motorcycle.

If you have grief between other gears (like you mention from 4 to 3) then Ed has provided excellent advice.  You have to really watch that shift lever adjustment any time you jump on a different bike - or even different boots. 

Going into first is a whole other bucket of Sh*t and some motorcycles are famous for noise going into first (Harley, sounds like 2 bricks slamming together) or trying to find neutral. That is because the transition from 2nd to first, or neutral to first is completely different than the transition from other gears like 2nd to 3rd.

I have owned dozens of motorcycles and the MT07 has a great transmission. But the idea of rev-matching into first gear on ANY motorcycle reminds me of some torture scenes on a movie that I want to fast-forward through rather than watch it.

Manual transmission cars and trucks have synchromesh that facilitates shifting between gears. Motorcycles are completely different, do not have synchro. Instead they are CONSTANT MESH which is fine unless you are blipping down from 2nd to 1st. There is a neutral between 2nd and 1st, as explained around 3:00 on the following video.

This video at around the 5 minute point shows how you can find neutral between 2nd and 1st gear. That "detent" they show between 1st and 2nd on the star wheel is what you are stumbling through when trying to rev-match from 2nd down to first.  That shift down to first is best done when you are not moving, or slowing down to a stop. 

 

Edited June 7 by Lone Wolf

[Evill_Ed]

@Lone Wolf that is a great video.

 

Ed

[navid]

57 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Why would you "rev-match" into first gear?

Just because you were able to do in on your MT03 doesn't mean it is a good idea.

Obviously first gear is needed when taking off from a stop, or after you come to a stop so that you can take off again when the light turns green. Once you are underway, moving between 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. is easily done on virtually any motorcycle.

If you have grief between other gears (like you mention from 4 to 3) then Ed has provided excellent advice.  You have to really watch that shift lever adjustment any time you jump on a different bike - or even different boots. 

Going into first is a whole other bucket of Sh*t and some motorcycles are famous for noise going into first (Harley, sounds like 2 bricks slamming together) or trying to find neutral. That is because the transition from 2nd to first, or neutral to first is completely different than the transition from other gears like 2nd to 3rd.

I have owned dozens of motorcycles and the MT07 has a great transmission. But the idea of rev-matching into first gear on ANY motorcycle reminds me of some torture scenes on a movie that I want to fast-forward through rather than watch it.

Manual transmission cars and trucks have synchromesh that facilitates shifting between gears. Motorcycles are completely different, do not have synchro. Instead they are CONSTANT MESH which is fine unless you are blipping down from 2nd to 1st. There is a neutral between 2nd and 1st, as explained around 3:00 on the following video.

This video at around the 5 minute point shows how you can find neutral between 2nd and 1st gear. That "detent" they show between 1st and 2nd on the star wheel is what you are stumbling through when trying to rev-match from 2nd down to first.  That shift down to first is best done when you are not moving, or slowing down to a stop. 

 

Thanks for the details. For some context, I am only downshifting to first when coming to a stop. And I always blip the clutch.

Sometimes I do land in neutral when downshifting from 2, but the main issue is that often I don't even find neutal and the shift pedal feels like a spring. That was what was concerning part for me. It's possible like Ed said that I'm not giving it enough time to return to rest.

Edited June 7 by navid

[navid]

1 hour ago, Evill_Ed said:

You may need to adjust your shift lever angle. The shift drum has to completely return to its rest position to ratchet the next gear (for up or down shifting) If you shift and have a little pressure on the shift lever, like it resting on or under your shoe for instance, the shift drum cannot ratchet to the next gear position. When you try shifting up or down, the lever will move but the gear wont change. 

You can test this by going for a ride and intentionally moving your foot away from the shift lever between shifts to allow the shift drum to return to its rest position. Then you should be able to shift up or down to the next gear. 

Ed

Thanks. I'll play around with the shift lever. I raised it a few notches after I bought the bike because it was far too low to comfortably upshift. I'll test out it by giving myself time between shifts.

[Evill_Ed]

51 minutes ago, navid said:

Thanks. I'll play around with the shift lever. I raised it a few notches after I bought the bike because it was far too low to comfortably upshift. I'll test out it by giving myself time between shifts.

Make sure the shet rod is at 90° angle to the shift arm on the engine case so that there is no binding, You can make lever adjustment with the shift rod. loosen the jamb nuts and twist the rod to raise or lower the shift lever. Once set, re tighten the jamb nuts.

Ed

 

Borrowed Picture

[navid]

On 6/7/2024 at 11:37 AM, Evill_Ed said:

Make sure the shet rod is at 90° angle to the shift arm on the engine case so that there is no binding, You can make lever adjustment with the shift rod. loosen the jamb nuts and twist the rod to raise or lower the shift lever. Once set, re tighten the jamb nuts.

Ed

 

Borrowed Picture

I think mines 90 degrees. Does everything else look good?

[Evill_Ed]

yes, that angle looks good.

 

Ed

[klx678]

On 6/7/2024 at 10:48 AM, navid said:

Thanks for the details. For some context, I am only downshifting to first when coming to a stop. And I always blip the clutch.

Sometimes I do land in neutral when downshifting from 2, but the main issue is that often I don't even find neutal and the shift pedal feels like a spring. That was what was concerning part for me. It's possible like Ed said that I'm not giving it enough time to return to rest.

FWIW...   The shifter has a spring that brings it back to be placed to make the next shift up or down.   So it has a "springiness" to it.   I agree with some others, it doesn't really make much sense to do a distinct clutch engaged downshift to first.   You can get down to a reasonable speed without going to first with the clutch engaged.   I almost never will actually engage the clutch in first gear when coming to a stop.  By the time I hit second or even third, I am at a point where I will simply keep the clutch disengaged, downshifting through to first either as I stop or after I've stopped.   

There are times when the shift dogs line up and the transmission doesn't want to engage the next gear down.  A slight easing out of the clutch and the gears move enough to allow engagement after I've pulled the clutch back in.   

But really, there is no need in normal riding, to actually engage first gear when coming to a stop.  The only time I will engage first is if traffic is so slow or leaving a stop so slow that I will engage first gear - and that is extremely seldom.  After all, with the power of the twin, the bike works fine slow rolling in second and even starting from a stop in second.  

Take away...   Don't bother actually engaging the clutch in first gear when coming to a stop.  Just tap down through whatever gears as you roll to the stop, using the brakes to stop.  First is so darn low that one would really have to rev rather high to do the blip to downshift.   Just not worth the bother.

 

Now my 1975 Guzzi had a first gear that was more like the CP700's third gear...  that was a different story entirely.

Edited June 9 by klx678

[Triple Jim]

7 hours ago, klx678 said:

Now my 1975 Guzzi had a first gear that was more like the CP700's third gear...  that was a different story entirely.

My '89  Guzzi Mille GT did too, like most of them.  I often think of the Mille when I'm taking off from a stop on my MT-07.  I really don't know why Moto Guzzi made (makes) the low gears so tall.

 

Navid, the smaller the engine on a motorcycle, the easier it is to match its speed on downshifts, and the smoother you can upshift.    My Yamaha DT100 takes about zero finesse to make smooth shifts. 

[navid]

8 hours ago, Triple Jim said:

My '89  Guzzi Mille GT did too, like most of them.  I often think of the Mille when I'm taking off from a stop on my MT-07.  I really don't know why Moto Guzzi made (makes) the low gears so tall.

 

Navid, the smaller the engine on a motorcycle, the easier it is to match its speed on downshifts, and the smoother you can upshift.    My Yamaha DT100 takes about zero finesse to make smooth shifts. 

Thanks for the insight.

[navid]

16 hours ago, klx678 said:

FWIW...   The shifter has a spring that brings it back to be placed to make the next shift up or down.   So it has a "springiness" to it.   I agree with some others, it doesn't really make much sense to do a distinct clutch engaged downshift to first.   You can get down to a reasonable speed without going to first with the clutch engaged.   I almost never will actually engage the clutch in first gear when coming to a stop.  By the time I hit second or even third, I am at a point where I will simply keep the clutch disengaged, downshifting through to first either as I stop or after I've stopped.   

There are times when the shift dogs line up and the transmission doesn't want to engage the next gear down.  A slight easing out of the clutch and the gears move enough to allow engagement after I've pulled the clutch back in.   

But really, there is no need in normal riding, to actually engage first gear when coming to a stop.  The only time I will engage first is if traffic is so slow or leaving a stop so slow that I will engage first gear - and that is extremely seldom.  After all, with the power of the twin, the bike works fine slow rolling in second and even starting from a stop in second.  

Take away...   Don't bother actually engaging the clutch in first gear when coming to a stop.  Just tap down through whatever gears as you roll to the stop, using the brakes to stop.  First is so darn low that one would really have to rev rather high to do the blip to downshift.   Just not worth the bother.

 

Now my 1975 Guzzi had a first gear that was more like the CP700's third gear...  that was a different story entirely.

Thanks for your advice. I've been downshifting out of habit as I really nailed it down from my first bike (where it was much easier haha).

Brake wear is not a concern to me. I've just replaced all front and rear pads to EBC sintered pads for like $80. It's just insanely addictive to hear the decel burps of the Akra Carbon as I come to a stop . I do make sure cars are far behind as engine braking = no brake lights.

Edited June 10 by navid

[Claude]

On 6/9/2024 at 6:59 AM, klx678 said:

...But really, there is no need in normal riding, to actually engage first gear when coming to a stop.  The only time I will engage first is if traffic is so slow or leaving a stop so slow that I will engage first gear - and that is extremely seldom.  After all, with the power of the twin, the bike works fine slow rolling in second and even starting from a stop in second.  

Take away...   Don't bother actually engaging the clutch in first gear when coming to a stop.  Just tap down through whatever gears as you roll to the stop, using the brakes to stop.  First is so darn low that one would really have to rev rather high to do the blip to downshift.   Just not worth the bother...

I beg to differ as I am using the first gear very often when I come to a stop. However, I must specify that I have a larger (17T) than standard (16T) front sprocket so I'm probably using 1st gear more often than most. And to answer OP original question, rev matching the engine when downshifting is as easy on 1st gear than any other one and I do it at about the same rpm.

[klx678]

You may differ in opinion, but then you are running a taller final drive.  But even then I would probably still do what I do.  Which is to downshift and engage each gear, if I do engage them, to third or second and come to a stop, tapping down to first either at about the last instant or after stopping.  It is a nuisance and takes a longer distance to stop if I'm spending time downshifting and engaging the clutch in first gear and actually in second as well.   Riding on a road where a turn or conditions requiring lower gears is a totally different situation, but even there in most cases second will pull about any normal corner accelerating away.   

I have a 17T sprocket on the shelf I plan to install some time.  The 700 is a tad low geared and it seems the pace could pick up with a bit taller gearing.  Then I can see how things go.  Like I said, I had a MotoGuzzi and will also include the Bultaco Metralla I had, both having ridiculously high first gears.  The Metralla, because it was kind of a bit of a high  performance (for the era) two stroke single and geared for top end, but the Guzzi just plain had a high final drive gearing.   No where near as easy to pull away in second as the 700 is.  If I had to guess, I'd say the Guzzi might have had the same gear box and final drive gearing as the production sport bike, the Le Mans.  Some serious clutch slippage to get rolling in comparison. 

Of course there is the other mechanical point to be made for not bothering with engaging second or first gear.  Clutches are more costly and harder to replace than brake pads.  But that's kind of a ridiculous argument considering how little clutch slippage is involved in downshifting.   

It's  actually just the waste of effort and increased stopping distance for me.  Only time I deal with first or second rev matching is if I know traffic and traffic signals will allow me to be rolling in second or first gear.  Then I downshift with a tad of throttle blippage...  blippage being a non-word I think we need to incorporate into motorcycle lexicon pertaining to the downshifting topic.   

Edited June 13 by klx678

[Paulb5950]

Stock gearing currently, and I do find myself downshifting into second fairly often coming into tighter turns, and turning at lights... For me first basically only after I come to complete stop, unless traffic is crazy.